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Message
LSU vs Florida - when Guilbeau is half right
Posted on 5/30/12 at 10:58 am
Posted on 5/30/12 at 10:58 am
LINK
Another thread, on the rant about favorite football game, prompted me to review the games I'd like to watch again. I have watched the 2003 and 2007 BCS games on video and have been unable to relive the excitement despite watching with friends, beer flowing, and telling tall tales about that day/game. I felt that LSU could have beaten OU by a wider margin and play calling and play making were sloppy/conservative. Ohio State game may have been a better NC game with LSU dominating that last two-and-half quarters of the game. However, two games that I recall fondly made Guilbeau's article favoring LSU-Florida rivalry.
1. LSU defeats No. 1 Florida in 1997. Florida fans exuded the cockiness instilled by Spurrier. Some gator fans were doing their gator chomp outside the stadium. Setting sun and a clear sky rendered Tiger Stadium a great atmosphere. Gators were supposed to beat the Tigers. But the Tigers were in control most of the game and the site of Spurrier slamming his visor to the ground is still priceless to recall. Did that really happen? I watched from the stands for a long while as the goal posts came down and people taking stadium sod as souvenir.
2. 2007 LSU vs Florida. Tebow's phone number was posted in some forums. Gator's drew first blood. Tebow mimicked dialing near the north end zone. Gators led by 14 in the game. Gators were defending BCS champs. Tebow was a shoe-in for Heisman. Tigers did not give up and fought back. When Gators took the lead against LSU in the second half, there was no wrist-wringing about LSU play. I was quite satisfied with LSU play - whatever the final result - the team had acquitted itself well.
These two games could make a good case for people who remember the recent past and would like to make Florida a permanent rival for LSU. 1997 win is memorable not only for LSU's defeat of a No.1 team for the first time in Tiger Stadium, it was a lone win in 14 games, Spurrier was running roughshod over SEC, and LSU was in doldrums. 2007 win was memorable for catapulting LSU towards its BCS title. The game itself was well played.
Since 1937, LSU and Florida have played 58 times. The rivalry with Florida has not been close. The pendulum has constantly swung to the extremes. Only in recent years, LSU and Florida have traded wins.For someone like me that has followed LSU since 1991, this is rivalry. Should this contest be foisted upon others who have followed LSU much longer.
Perhaps its a rivalry and Florida should be LSU's permanent rival. A case for this rivalry should be made on facts and facts alone. Guilbeau makes his case by challenging someone's manhood
He also makes statement without reasoning.
Why are these rivalries good for college football?
These rivalries have no bearing on college football. Harvard vs Yale was a big deal in the early part of 20th century. Syracuse used to be a big deal for many years after Jim Brown. No one would care of LSU's rivalry with Florida during Spurrier days.
One game or an upset does not make a rival. Both teams should be in contention for conference and national championships. No one cares if the teams are vying for the wooden spoon. Big10 has a myriad trophies. Each match a rivalry. Really! Does anyone care about the matches that do not impact some sort of league or national championship.
If LSU has a permanent rival in Florida, let's hope that both teams are in contention for the conference and national championships for a long time to come.
Of course, Guilbeau wrote his column to attract some clicks. Does he not have a responsibility to make a good argument? 'Alleva is scairt' is not a good case for the rivalry.
Another thread, on the rant about favorite football game, prompted me to review the games I'd like to watch again. I have watched the 2003 and 2007 BCS games on video and have been unable to relive the excitement despite watching with friends, beer flowing, and telling tall tales about that day/game. I felt that LSU could have beaten OU by a wider margin and play calling and play making were sloppy/conservative. Ohio State game may have been a better NC game with LSU dominating that last two-and-half quarters of the game. However, two games that I recall fondly made Guilbeau's article favoring LSU-Florida rivalry.
1. LSU defeats No. 1 Florida in 1997. Florida fans exuded the cockiness instilled by Spurrier. Some gator fans were doing their gator chomp outside the stadium. Setting sun and a clear sky rendered Tiger Stadium a great atmosphere. Gators were supposed to beat the Tigers. But the Tigers were in control most of the game and the site of Spurrier slamming his visor to the ground is still priceless to recall. Did that really happen? I watched from the stands for a long while as the goal posts came down and people taking stadium sod as souvenir.
2. 2007 LSU vs Florida. Tebow's phone number was posted in some forums. Gator's drew first blood. Tebow mimicked dialing near the north end zone. Gators led by 14 in the game. Gators were defending BCS champs. Tebow was a shoe-in for Heisman. Tigers did not give up and fought back. When Gators took the lead against LSU in the second half, there was no wrist-wringing about LSU play. I was quite satisfied with LSU play - whatever the final result - the team had acquitted itself well.
These two games could make a good case for people who remember the recent past and would like to make Florida a permanent rival for LSU. 1997 win is memorable not only for LSU's defeat of a No.1 team for the first time in Tiger Stadium, it was a lone win in 14 games, Spurrier was running roughshod over SEC, and LSU was in doldrums. 2007 win was memorable for catapulting LSU towards its BCS title. The game itself was well played.
Since 1937, LSU and Florida have played 58 times. The rivalry with Florida has not been close. The pendulum has constantly swung to the extremes. Only in recent years, LSU and Florida have traded wins.For someone like me that has followed LSU since 1991, this is rivalry. Should this contest be foisted upon others who have followed LSU much longer.
Perhaps its a rivalry and Florida should be LSU's permanent rival. A case for this rivalry should be made on facts and facts alone. Guilbeau makes his case by challenging someone's manhood
quote:
It's nice to see someone with guts.
He also makes statement without reasoning.
quote:
Everyone else is not being so selfish. LSU vs. Florida, Auburn vs. Georgia and Alabama vs. Tennessee are good for college football and good for the SEC. That's the big picture.
Why are these rivalries good for college football?
These rivalries have no bearing on college football. Harvard vs Yale was a big deal in the early part of 20th century. Syracuse used to be a big deal for many years after Jim Brown. No one would care of LSU's rivalry with Florida during Spurrier days.
One game or an upset does not make a rival. Both teams should be in contention for conference and national championships. No one cares if the teams are vying for the wooden spoon. Big10 has a myriad trophies. Each match a rivalry. Really! Does anyone care about the matches that do not impact some sort of league or national championship.
If LSU has a permanent rival in Florida, let's hope that both teams are in contention for the conference and national championships for a long time to come.
Of course, Guilbeau wrote his column to attract some clicks. Does he not have a responsibility to make a good argument? 'Alleva is scairt' is not a good case for the rivalry.
10
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:05 am to YellowShoe
quote:
Why are these rivalries good for college football?
Without tradition (of which rivalries are a part) CFB turns into little more than double-A minor league baseball.
I prefer to keep the rivalries intact.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:09 am to AlwysATgr
I prefer to not have teams within your own conference that you don't play for 10 years at a time.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:14 am to YellowShoe
It's all about tv sets.
LSU Fla had some pretty important games recently and the SEC needs that game as a bargaining chip in the next tv contract.
Missouri Arkansas gives them another border war made for TV
LSU Fla had some pretty important games recently and the SEC needs that game as a bargaining chip in the next tv contract.
Missouri Arkansas gives them another border war made for TV
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:31 am to YellowShoe
quote:
Everyone else is not being so selfish. LSU vs. Florida, Auburn vs. Georgia and Alabama vs. Tennessee are good for college football and good for the SEC. That's the big picture.
Why are these rivalries good for college football?
because they are historic games between rivals that people care about tremendously
FWIW, I want to keep Florida on LSU's schedule every single year
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:35 am to molsusports
People outside the conference want to see good games, they don't care about the tradition or if it is a rivalry.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:45 am to That's BS
quote:
I prefer to not have teams within your own conference that you don't play for 10 years at a time.
Exactly.
This is my problem with the not having a rotating schedule with the other division.
Does eveyone realize that LSU plays USCe this year and next year. If the 6-1-1 format sticks LSU will not play USCe again until 2024.
So if we only have to play USCe, Tenn, and UGA twice every 12 years that means Bama and Auburn has to only play Florida twice every 12 years.
Of course Bama and Auburn wants the 6-1-1 to stick. Wouldn't you!!
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:53 am to ScottieP
quote:
Does eveyone realize that LSU plays USCe this year and next year. If the 6-1-1 format sticks LSU will not play USCe again until 2024.
it sounds like they will do a 6-1-1 with the return trips separated by six years... so you will rotate through everyone every six years... but it will take 12 years for everyone to get a return trip.
this is not perfect, but no solution really seems all that good with 14 teams
Posted on 5/30/12 at 11:59 am to molsusports
quote:
it sounds like they will do a 6-1-1 with the return trips separated by six years... so you will rotate through everyone every six years... but it will take 12 years for everyone to get a return trip.
Hell that is even worse.
As a fan I get to go to UGA and get treated like shite and then have to wait 6 years before I can return the favor in Tiger Stadium.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 12:02 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:
Without tradition (of which rivalries are a part) CFB turns into little more than double-A minor league baseball.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
The SEC has rocketed to the pinnacle of college football precisely because it has been willing, on multiple occasions, to forsake tradition (especially traditional rivalries) in the name of innovation.
Until sometime in the 1970s, there was no structure to SEC scheduling. Teams played whoever they wanted and however many games they wanted in conference play. Some teams played 7 games, others might play 5. Teams went decades without playing each other.
In the 1970s, the conference members got together and changed this. They established a structure in which each team would play six SEC games, five against perennial traditional rivals, while rotating the other four through the one additional slot.
This helped, but it still had some problems. Playing rotating opponents only twice every eight years meant that an SEC team, LSU, never got to face either Herschel Walker or Bo Jackson. So, in 1988, the SEC changed the format.
We went to a 7-game schedule, rotating the four non-perennial opponents through two slots instead of one. Now, every SEC team would play every other SEC team twice every four years. The result was amazing. LSU and Auburn played two fantastic defensive battles in 1988 (the Earthquake Game) and 1989. Alabama and Georgia put on a 17-16 thriller in Athens in 1990.
Then, in 1992, the SEC changed everything. Expanding to 12 teams, going to divisional play and instituting a championship game transformed the entire face of college football. It was such a huge success that it has been copied by practically every conference in the 20 years since. But it came at the cost of sacrificing some traditional matchups. Auburn and Tennessee had a great series for decades until 1991. Then, with expansion, it was no longer an annual game. The same was true for Ole Miss and Tennessee. But the payoff was much greater than the cost of sacrficing those rivalries. The drama and excitement of divisional races and the SEC Championship Game were unprecedented.
There was one glitch, though. With expansion, we adopted a 5-2-1 scheduling format that had us rotating four opponents through only one slot, leaving us playing them only twice every eight years. We still had Peyton Manning go through the SEC without ever setting foot in Tiger Stadium. Kevin Faulk never took the field against Tennessee. SEC legends missing out on the chance to play against legendary programs and in legendary venues highlighted the problem with having conference teams not play each other often enough.
After 10 years of that, the SEC again let go of some tradition (the Auburn-Florida annual series, for example) in 2002 to opt for a 5-1-2 format that rotated five teams through two slots, resulting in every SEC team playing every other SEC team twice every five years. Again, the payoff far exceeded the price.
In exchange for the annual series that were sacrificed, we got more great matchups. LSU and Tennessee played three amazingly heartbreaking games in 2005, 2006 and 2010. Georgia and Alabama had a wonderful overtime thriller in Tuscaloosa in 2007. LSU and Georgia had the controversial 2009 game with the unsportsmanlike conduct calls. South Carolina pulled a huge upset of #1 Alabama in 2010. Just as importantly, when another SEC legend, Tim Tebow, came through the conference, every SEC fan got to see their team face off against him.
These matchups were epic. And they were television gold. The SEC was putting out monumental games practically every week. The fans loved it, the networks loved it and the poll voters loved it. The SEC was proving every Saturday that this was where you had to go if you wanted to find the kind of drama and excitement that only the best of college football could offer.
Now, in 2012, the SEC again is proving that it is the innovator, becoming the first major conference to expand to 14 teams. We are bringing in two great new schools with new and important histories to add to our own. We're expanding our geographic footprint, our national brand and our television markets. We are also making headway in our push for a national championship playoff. We are setting the standard for college football and it seems almost inevitable that the rest of the country will have no choice but to follow us.
But once again, we seem to be repeating one mistake. Sacrificing great inter-divisional matchups on a nearly weekly basis just to hold on to a few traditional rivalries. When Auburn and Tennessee stopped playing every year, it was disappointing, but what we got in return was far more valuable. When Auburn and Florida stopped playing every year, the same held true.
But now we appear headed for a situation in which we only play some of our conference opponents once every six years, or twice every 12 years. That will preserve Alabama-Tennessee, Auburn-Georgia, LSU-Florida, etc., but look what it will cost us.
The epic Auburn-Florida games of 2006 and 2007. The hearbreakers between LSU and Tennessee in 2005, 2006 and 2010. Steve Spurrier looking shocked and embarrassed when Colt David ran for a TD on a fake field goal, or triumphant as he crossed the field to shake hands with Nick Saban after beating him. Ole Miss pulling a huge upset in the Swamp over the eventual national champions.
These are the non-perennial games that have produced so much excitement and appeal for the SEC, its fans and the nation for the last 10 years. They've also promoted a kinship within the conference that has led to its unprecedented SEC loyalty. Playing each other often enough to remember the last game does that.
Tradition has other costs, too. From now on (or until we change this format), how many players will earn the right to play in the SEC but never get to experience going up against a traditional powerhouse like Alabama, or play in a world-famous venue like Tiger Stadium or the Swamp? How many SEC fans will see legendary players come through the conference without ever facing their team? It'll be 12 years before some teams' fans get to experience watching the Texas Aggie band do one of its famous halftime shows. When will Missouri fans ever get to experience The Grove? When will Vol Nation get to welcome the Aggies to Neyland? Will Missouri and Auburn even know they are in the same conference?
In 1988, the SEC changed its scheduling format because playing our rotating opponents twice every eight years wasn't enough. Again in 2002, we changed the scheduling format because playing rotating opponents only twice every eight years wasn't enough. Now, we're going to play them only twice every 12 years? Twice we've made this mistake. Twice we've recognized this mistake. And twice we've corrected this mistake. Now, some want to make it again, only worse.
Being slaves to tradition and having to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future of college football is for the Big Ten and the Pac 12. Once the equals of any conference anywhere, they have seen the balance of power shift, perhaps irrevocably, away from them and to the SEC, primarily due to their resistance at every turn to any sort of change or innovation that threatened their precious traditions. They've always eventually given in and moved forward, but they've always been the last to do it, and they've fallen behind because of it. They may never catch up, and certainly won't if they don't learn to change with the game and let go of some of their traditions.
Tradition is great, don't get me wrong. But part of what has made the SEC the juggernaut that it is today has been the courage to let go of some traditions to innovate and create even better ones.
This post was edited on 5/30/12 at 4:48 pm
Posted on 5/30/12 at 12:11 pm to That's BS
quote:
I prefer to not have teams within your own conference that you don't play for 10 years at a time.
the primary reason everyone should have a problem with this...
Posted on 5/30/12 at 2:49 pm to YellowShoe
For once Guibeau absolutely NAILED IT! I couldn't agree with him more! 
Posted on 5/30/12 at 2:58 pm to YellowShoe
i recall the 2004 oregon state game like yesterday, more so than a lot of other games i have been to. We should start a rivalry with them.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 3:00 pm to YellowShoe
I am really OK with it either way, but the fact of the matter is that LSU-Florida simply is not the same animal as Auburn-Georgia (oldest rivalry in the South) or Bama-TN (do I really have to explain?). LSU-Florida just isn't a "virtual border war"; it is a conference game that is often very meaningful, but it is not a rivalry game.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 3:26 pm to YellowShoe
quote:
Guilbeau
Stopped reading there ...
Posted on 5/30/12 at 3:32 pm to YellowShoe
quote:
Why are these rivalries good for college football?
Good for keeping SEC teams from going undefeated.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 3:35 pm to ScottieP
quote:
Hell that is even worse.
As a fan I get to go to UGA and get treated like shite and then have to wait 6 years before I can return the favor in Tiger Stadium.
Between 1943 and 1969 LSU played Auburn exactly once.
Between 1958 and 1975 LSU played Vanderbilt exactly ZERO times.
From 1953 to 1978 LSU played Georgia twice. Once in '53 and again in '78.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 4:36 pm to otowntiger
quote:
For once Guibeau absolutely NAILED IT! I couldn't agree with him more!
I don't click on Guilbeau links, so I didn't read what he wrote, but I assume he's toeing the Alabama party line as usual and chirping on about that tradition bullshite. Thank goodness the SEC has been willing to forsake tradition in favor of innovation in the past, or we wouldn't be where we are today. I'm hopeful we'll do the correct thing with our scheduling format, if not now then in a few years when teams realize they want to be in a conference with more than just seven other teams.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 4:38 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Between 1943 and 1969 LSU played Auburn exactly once.
Between 1958 and 1975 LSU played Vanderbilt exactly ZERO times.
From 1953 to 1978 LSU played Georgia twice. Once in '53 and again in '78
Yep, it was a total mess. Thank goodness they eventually fixed it, then messed it up again, then fixed it again. Looks like they're about to mess it up again, but maybe then they'll fix it again.
Posted on 5/30/12 at 6:24 pm to Nuts4LSU
Nuts4LSU - well said. The SEC and LSU will be better off if every West team plays every East team as often as possible, i.e. eliminating the fixed rivalries. Over the years there will be many more epic games as a result.
I'm sure this is heretical, but if traditional rivalries are that important to teams (and LSU-Florida isn't a traditional rivalry, its a recent invention masquerading as a traditional rivalry) then those teams can always use a non-conference slot to schedule their "traditional" game, just like USCal and Notre Dame do.
Personally I like that we play Florida every year, because they are generally a very strong team and it helps strength of schedule (and it sometimes produces great games). But given the increase in conference size we need to let it go, and just play them in the rotation. Playing every East team twice every seven years is better for all than playing six of them once every six years (and in Tiger Stadium once every twelve years).
Of course an even better solution would be to increase the number of conference games to nine, so we play three East teams every year (or perhaps even one fixed and two rotating). But that doesn't seem to be on the table.
I'm sure this is heretical, but if traditional rivalries are that important to teams (and LSU-Florida isn't a traditional rivalry, its a recent invention masquerading as a traditional rivalry) then those teams can always use a non-conference slot to schedule their "traditional" game, just like USCal and Notre Dame do.
Personally I like that we play Florida every year, because they are generally a very strong team and it helps strength of schedule (and it sometimes produces great games). But given the increase in conference size we need to let it go, and just play them in the rotation. Playing every East team twice every seven years is better for all than playing six of them once every six years (and in Tiger Stadium once every twelve years).
Of course an even better solution would be to increase the number of conference games to nine, so we play three East teams every year (or perhaps even one fixed and two rotating). But that doesn't seem to be on the table.
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