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Detailed explanation for why Simon is #2 CB and not TM.

Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:19 am
Posted by EricB
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1680 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:19 am
So you see all of these exciting plays that TM has made over the last year and don't agree with TM being the "nickelback." I would just like to preface this by saying that he would be a good cornerback, but this article does a great job of explaining why his skill set doesn't really make him the best cornerback. Word it how you want, but he's not at NB because that's where we "need" him, but rather because he is NOT the 2nd best CB, otherwise he would be the #2 CB.

I'm simply going to quote this article because it explains the differences very well.
quote:

The first big difference between the two positions is that the cornerback has a extra defender that is always helping him. That defender is never out of position, he never gets tired and when a defender enter his space he never misses a tackle. That defender is the sideline. Any good cornerback will use the sideline to get an advantage. He can push a receiver towards it within five yards of the line of scrimmage. He can redirect a receiver's route towards it by using his body to keep the receiver from running away from it. He can also push a receiver towards it as he is trying to make a catch and with no more force out rule the play will be ruled incomplete if the receiver doesn't get both feet in bounds with possession of the football. The nickelback rarely gets to use the sideline.
quote:

In coverage the nickelback usually won't have to do a lot of full speed backpedals or have to turn and run to cover a Go route (where the receiver just runs as deep as he can). This is because a safety is usually behind the nickelback and he'll be in charge of taking over on any deep routes. This safety is much closer to the slot receiver than he is to the other receiver on that side so it usually isn't in the offense's best interest to use the slot receiver as a deep threat (although play action passes and other techniques that manipulate the safety can change this). So, basically what the nickelback will focus on is a lot of comeback routes, inside slants and out routes toward the sideline. Since this is the case, the nickelback will need to be suited to handle these routes first and his secondary talents can focus on the less likely scenarios.
quote:

All three of the routes I mentioned in the previous paragraph (comeback, slant and out) are what can be called timing patterns. The quarterback wants to throw to the receiver at a particular point in his route. He'll want to do this because the route is supposed to give the receiver an opening to catch the ball and run with it at that point. One way to do this is to jam the receiver within the first 5 yards. A good jam will almost completely eliminate the ability to throw a comeback route. The receiver will be in the wrong place, the defender will be right next to him and the quarterback will have to wait until the receiver is more open thus giving the pass rush time to arrive. A good jam on an inside slant route can force the receiver into the traffic that is around the line of scrimmage. This will create obstacles that the quarterback will have to throw between. However, a jam on an out route towards the sideline isn't going to help as much. It will change how the receiver runs his route, but he can still get to the same point in the route pretty easily. The nickelback will need to chase, locate the ball and get in the way of its path to the receiver.
quote:

The nickelback will have other responsibilities too. When the nickelback is in the game the defense is very spread out and it makes them a little vulnerable to the run. The nickelback is the closest defender to the running back outside of the lineman and linebackers. He'll have to be able to make some plays in run support. In addition to that, an aggressive defensive coordinator will also use the nickelback to blitz. This may be to help with the run support situation, but it may also be used to get to the quarterback in a situation where they need more than just a couple yards (and thus the slot receiver can be covered by the safety possibly with help from a linebacker dropping into coverage). The nickelback may also be needed for underneath coverage when the outside cornerback has to run deep and the nickelback becomes in charge of everything thrown short on his side of the field, which could even be the outside receiver running a comeback route.
quote:

So what primary skill set does that leave us with? He needs to be strong and able to jam. He needs to have good ball skills to knock down or intercept passes. He needs to have good speed in short bursts (as opposed to top end speed). And he needs to be able to chase and tackle a running back or quarterback. These are not all the same skills as a cornerback. The cornerback has to have great top end speed to run with the fastest players in the league on deep routes. The cornerback also needs almost a sixth sense of when he's going to have safety help and when he won't. He needs to be able to get some kind of jam, but more importantly needs to turn and run with the receiver once the jam is complete. He needs to be strong at back pedaling so that he can react to any of the receiver's short routes while still in position to turn and run deep. And, finally, like the nickelback, needs good ball skills to stop a pass. Tackling could be considered a secondary skill since most tackles will be made on a receiver who is busy trying to catch the ball. Jamming is almost secondary. Having a good short burst is secondary. Obviously, the best cornerbacks will be good at all those secondary skills, but one could argue that a player who is good at the primary skills, but below average at the secondary stuff would be an average cornerback


TM is a ball hawk who makes a lot of exciting plays, but there are two freshman that i was shocked with last year that those of us who enjoy learning about the game and not just getting waisted and repeating hype statements about our favorite players saw. 1.) Spencer Ware - I was arguing about how we wouldn't miss a step if Ridley was ineligible and people crucified me. Then Ware gets nearly the same yardage with less than half the carries and it happens to be one of Ridley's best games. 2.) Simon - anyone who saw him cover Julio Jones in man-to-man during the LSU Bama game last year and realized that Julio had just made some big plays on pp7 with the slant route yet Simon, a true freshman, punked him... had to have been shocked. Im not arguing that Simon is better than pp7, but in two years... its very possible... and he'll be in the NFL regardless.

URL to article

Moral of the story: ignore the hype and learn the difference between a NB and a CB.
This post was edited on 7/23/11 at 9:19 am
Posted by BigEdLSU
All around the south
Member since Sep 2010
20268 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:26 am to
Moral of the story: LSU is DB U.

TM is too good to keep off the field. Advantage LSU.
Posted by touchdown moses
eunice, LA
Member since Nov 2009
6024 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:28 am to
nice post
Posted by Prominentwon
LSU, McNeese St. Fan
Member since Jan 2005
93755 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:31 am to
you could have ignored the mentally challenged and just said what's been said for a while now....

the best players need to be on the field regardless of what their job may be.
Posted by A75CADDY
BatonRouge, LA
Member since Nov 2010
314 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:32 am to
are you suggesting that playing Simon at corner is the best way to get the best talent on the field?
Posted by EricB
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1680 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:35 am to
quote:

are you suggesting that playing Simon at corner is the best way to get the best talent on the field?


Logically, yes. The line of logic that you are about to use is worthless. Otherwise, you could argue that we should have Rueben Randall playing on the defense somewhere... since he is so talented. We only need RR when we are on offense, just like we only need TM when we think it's more advantageous to have a 3rd CB than having a 3rd LB (unless we start running a 3-3-5).
Posted by A75CADDY
BatonRouge, LA
Member since Nov 2010
314 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:38 am to
What line of logic am I about to use?
Posted by EricB
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1680 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:39 am to
Is this where you pretend that you were being serious and not sarcastic because you got dimed out on it?
Posted by SammyTiger
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
66673 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:41 am to
I think it is smart, because the few times you saw Tm struggle (and htere were only few) was covering taller bigger receivers on longer routes. NO matter ow physical, and talented you are, you aren't gogin to beat out a 6'4" receiver is your 5'9".

Love this move, keep TM doing what he does best, and i think Simon is a huge talent.
Posted by dj30
New Orleans
Member since Feb 2006
28726 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:44 am to
quote:

Otherwise, you could argue that we should have Rueben Randall playing on the defense somewhere... since he is so talented. We only need RR when we are on offense, just like we only need TM when we think it's more advantageous to have a 3rd CB than having a 3rd LB (unless we start running a 3-3-5).



Posted by Jaketigger
Baton Rouge Area
Member since Feb 2008
5064 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:46 am to
This thread is on the mark. Unfortunately people on here will always see the flare and not the blue collar work. Take Mo last season. Look at how much he was tested. How many ints he had and break-ups, etc. His cover skill were BETTER than PP7 last year and he will be a 1st or 2nd round pick.
Overall PP7 was/is a better athlete and has more upside considering what he did in the return game so naturally all the attention should go his way.
If someone said you will get a Mo talent and ability db every year in your program and you get a PP7 for once every 40 years, I will take the Mo talent level player...
Good players make other players look good. that can be said BOTH ways at the corner spot last year.
Posted by A75CADDY
BatonRouge, LA
Member since Nov 2010
314 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:47 am to
I was seriously wondering what you thought my logic was.
Posted by TexasSinger
Front Row
Member since Feb 2006
4480 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:59 am to
If we all believe Reuben Randle is going to blow up this year, and I do, it is very hard to overlook the ability Simon flashed during the spring eliminating big plays to Randle. Simon has already demonstrated his maturity and confidence on the field as a true frosh under the bright lights. That the game isn't too big for him.

I'm very excited we have the talent in MoC and Simon on the outside, to be able to keep such a dynamic playmaker like TM7 inside at nickel to blitz and pick off all those slot passes. I for one think we will see a 4-2-5 defense the most this year.
Posted by EricB
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1680 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:02 am to
quote:

I for one think we will see a 4-2-5 defense the most this year.


With what alignment? 4-2-5 would mean seeing 3 safeties ....
Posted by dj30
New Orleans
Member since Feb 2006
28726 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:06 am to
quote:

His cover skill were BETTER than PP7 last year and he will be a 1st or 2nd round pick.


No they werent, the thing with MC though is that his ball skills were top notch, and better than PP7 accounting for his high number of picks.
Posted by A75CADDY
BatonRouge, LA
Member since Nov 2010
314 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:10 am to
quote:

With what alignment? 4-2-5 would mean seeing 3 safeties ....


Not exactly true. The 4-2-5 in general terms means the substitution of a defensive back for a linebacker. Most times when teams go to the nickel they bring in an extra cornerback. Which in LSU's case would probably be the most logical based on your original post.
Posted by EricB
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1680 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:14 am to
yeah. Thats why I asked what alignment. Nickel is called nickel and not 4-2-5 because it suggests that there will be a 3rd cb and not a 3rd safety and it also suggests that two safeties will be playing deep instead of one. Basically, I was asking if he meant Nickel or the traditional 4-2-5 with 1 FS and 2 Rovers
Posted by FightinTiga
Pumpkin Center
Member since Feb 2009
20745 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:14 am to
When TS came in and shut down A&M's WR Fuller after he repeatedly had beaten PP it was pretty obvious he was for real.This move doesn't surprise me one bit.With that being said TM has proven he deserves to be on the field as much as possible.What a wonderful delima.
This post was edited on 7/23/11 at 10:16 am
Posted by A75CADDY
BatonRouge, LA
Member since Nov 2010
314 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:26 am to
quote:

Nickel is called nickel and not 4-2-5 because it suggests that there will be a 3rd cb and not a 3rd safety and it also suggests that two safeties will be playing deep instead of one. Basically, I was asking if he meant Nickel or the traditional 4-2-5 with 1 FS and 2 Rovers

The 4-2-5 and the nickel are two different ways to say the same thing. The numbers just delineate what amount of a certain personnel group will be in on the play. They are generic terms for a defensive set where you have 4 DL's, 2 LB's and 5 DB's. Generally team substitute a safety or cb for the third linebacker based on situation and talent level at cb and safety.
Posted by EricB
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1680 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:27 am to
quote:

The 4-2-5 and the nickel are two different ways to say the same thing. The numbers just delineate what amount of a certain personnel group will be in on the play. They are generic terms for a defensive set where you have 4 DL's, 2 LB's and 5 DB's. Generally team substitute a safety or cb for the third linebacker based on situation and talent level at cb and safety.


You're exactly right, which is why i only asked which dbs he was speaking of the 3 safety package or 3 cb package, because there will be 2 safeties and 2 cbs regardless, and it's a valid question because if TM isn't on the field in a 4-2-5 then Reid or Loston would be, so it's not like ... "obviously TM".
This post was edited on 7/23/11 at 10:31 am
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