re: GoT S7 E5 "Eastwatch" MAESTERS THREAD

Well Jon is admittedly awesome at getting into battles where he is heavily outnumbered - i will give him that.

Ya i hope we get some more insight into what Bran's motivations / thoughts are this week.

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Ya i hope we get some more insight into what Bran's motivations / thoughts are this week.

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I think the creepy recounting of Sansa's rape was to show how diminished his connection to his family is. He isn't for Winterfell, he's for Mankind or maybe even the Children of the Forest. I'm not sure which of those 2 the TER would be more aligned with, perhaps the Children. All we know for sure is that he's anti WW.

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And to the others, yes i forgot hardhomme, but that wasn't really a great "battle" where he was a commander.

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NIGHT'S WATCH, ON ME!!! He commanded as many people as would fight to hold off the army of the dead as long as he could to save the lives of people who previously wanted to skin him alive.

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I'm not saying he is bad at fighting, but in terms of being a good leader / planner - he doesn't seem to do that well.

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I think this theory has been disproved several times in the previous posts.

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Regarding the other two I know he was out-numbered and against the free folk he did well leading the defense of the wall,

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Wait, you just said he isn't a good leader? Which one is it?

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but he still had to be rescued by stannis to claim victory.

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Yeah, and Stannis had to be rescued by his own men when he got his arse kicked at Blackwater. Jon went to Mance knowing he was either going to kill him or be killed himself. He didn't know Stannis was coming. He was putting his life on the line to end the war. He didn't send anyone else. He did it himself. That's leadership imo.

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Battle of the Bastards was just bad, he knew they were marching into slaughter (Sansa should certainly have told him about potential Vale help) - and then any chance they had to actually win was destroyed by running forward like that - which was a horrible move in the moment.

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Once again, wasn't the first time he faced overwhelming odds but had the spine to fight anyway. And running after his brother was a bad move in hindsight. But I having a hard time holding that against him when I'd most likely do it myself.

What his plan always his. Use those around him he think he can trick and manipulate to help further his position for the ultimate goal of controlling everything.

I can't wait until I don't have to hear his gay arse voice anymore. I hate him more than anyone else on the show.

I'm sure he's tired of talking in a creepy whisper for 100% of his lines.

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Right, but what do you think he actually does to carry out that goal?

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The more people that die... the more people that distrust each other... the better he can position himself. We know what he's doing. He's creating distrust between the starks.

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NIGHT'S WATCH, ON ME!!! He commanded as many people as would fight to hold off the army of the dead as long as he could to save the lives of people who previously wanted to skin him alive.

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He had a good moment recognizing that the white walkers were coming and that they needed dragonglass - but that wasn't really a big time battle command moment.

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I think this theory has been disproved several times in the previous posts.

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Still haven't seem him proven to be a consistently good leader / commander in my mind.

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Wait, you just said he isn't a good leader? Which one is it?

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Sorry i was trying to be nice and give him some credit - not everyone makes bad or good decisions every time - he got everyone to fight for their lives and run away and get as many people on the boats as best as they could - the only decision once could make in that scenario and though he did well, it wasn't really a major battle moment.

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Yeah, and Stannis had to be rescued by his own men when he got his arse kicked at Blackwater. Jon went to Mance knowing he was either going to kill him or be killed himself. He didn't know Stannis was coming. He was putting his life on the line to end the war. He didn't send anyone else. He did it himself. That's leadership imo.

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Stannis doesn't seem that impressive either though as he lost at blackwater (granted he was outsmarted with a WMD), won in a surprise cavalry charge at the wall and then got destroyed after burning his own daughter and is now dead. Jon is very Brave and selfless - good leadership qualities very true - but he isn't a good commander (maybe i should have used commander exclusively instead of switching commander and leader interchangeably). Also this is the one that he really had the least options in - i just felt the need to discuss each battle. This one isn't really a "fault / bad command" of his - i just don't think he gets credit for the victory either. Its kind of a wash.

I hadn't really voiced this criticism until the most recent developments in which he appears to be blindly rushing forth and is being predicted will have an end result in multiple deaths and potentially the death and turning of a dragon to their enemy. Thinking of these factors is what prompted my thoughts this morning.

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Once again, wasn't the first time he faced overwhelming odds but had the spine to fight anyway. And running after his brother was a bad move in hindsight. But I having a hard time holding that against him when I'd most likely do it myself.

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Having the spine to fight anyway is brave, it isn't a good move for the people following you who will likely die for nothing. And it is totally understandable to run after his brother - that was a very very sad sequence - but in terms of being a commander / leader, it wasn't a good move for the people following him though.

How much time has passed in Westeros since the start of S7?

Cersei should be showing by the time a wight shows up in KL.