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Posted on 7/12/17 at 10:47 am to SlowFlowPro
"the huge assumption is that those lower than the upper-middle class are incapable of adopting this culture, which is utter hogwash."
This gets right to the heart of it. This "huge assumption" is crap and it is terribly injurious to those who might wish to improve their lives.
This gets right to the heart of it. This "huge assumption" is crap and it is terribly injurious to those who might wish to improve their lives.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 10:47 am to Champagne
i'm gonna take this in a slightly new angle
did David Brooks just turn Alt-Lite?
one of the main arguments of the Alt-Lite (and Right) is that culture matters and certain cultural traits lead to more optimal outcomes
David Brooks just wrote a huge piece that pretty much argues "culture matters" and that certain cultural traits lead to...more optimal outcomes
the only real non-culture argument he made was about zoning, which is a liberal-progressive policy...that he's criticizing. so even that fits (to an extent)
did David Brooks just turn Alt-Lite?
one of the main arguments of the Alt-Lite (and Right) is that culture matters and certain cultural traits lead to more optimal outcomes
David Brooks just wrote a huge piece that pretty much argues "culture matters" and that certain cultural traits lead to...more optimal outcomes
the only real non-culture argument he made was about zoning, which is a liberal-progressive policy...that he's criticizing. so even that fits (to an extent)
Posted on 7/12/17 at 10:54 am to SlowFlowPro
Now, that's an interesting take. Most of those commenting in this thread know dang well that "culture matters," but now even David Brooks seems to recognize that it is so. I guess the next question is whether Brooks could ever bring himself to say that the norms and mores of the more successful should be aspired to by those from more humble backgrounds? That's what really makes a difference, whether in someone like JD Vance rising from his broken home to Yale Law School or whether it's making the decision that, as a nation, we want an immigration policy that strengthens our core national values.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 11:03 am to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
Most of those commenting in this thread know dang well that "culture matters," but now even David Brooks seems to recognize that it is so.
well like i said in my first post
they admit it...only to criticize it. it's just like "nuclear family privilege". basically all the data points out that having a nuclear family is more optimal and leads to much better results for children. since this (a) flies in the face of progressive ortodoxy that promotes/defends the more optimal behaviors and (b) would assign blame to those who choose the sub-optimal path for the outcomes of their progeny, they attack the superior behavior as "privilege"
just like this article. he's arguing "well better culture leads to better outcome, but that means that we shouldn't support/proliferate the culture and you're bad people for caring about your children and taking steps to ensure they have a more likely positive outcome." progs like this admit there are distinct cultures AND that one culture leads to better outcomes, but they have to use mental gymnastics to describe the differences in terms of exclusion.
now this argument can work with factors that are not malleable, like race or sex (sorry gender). if a culture/society is legitimately racist or sexist, then we can exclude people for things they literally cannot control. however, when we talk about culture, it's 100% adoptable by anyone so this argument is completely misguided. as i pointed out earlier, even the "ingredient/food" class signaling is a non-issue because of cell phones. information is more available and cheaper than ever, so you can't even make the "information proliferation" argument.
basically this is like gentrification. they want an impossible system. they want to defend/support lower class culture as some sort of ideal while expecting the results of non-lower class culture. the last thing progs want to do is admit that the culture they've helped establish and continue to defend is a major reason why poor people stay poor. that would make progressives monsters (and possibly racist/classist as frick) AND remove the "boogeyman" of the white, well-off conservative. if they lose the argument that the boogeyman is TAKING from the lower class and the story that "the upper-middle class is achievable if you adopt cultural valuesof the upper-middle class", then progs lose their power, meaning, and purpose
Posted on 7/12/17 at 11:21 am to Centinel
Centinel has it dead right. Brooks' Bubble.
quote:
Actually, if you limit that comment to wealthy progressive liberals, it's pretty much accurate.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 11:27 am to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
As usual, Brooks gropes for the fainting couch when confronted with the utterly unremarkable.
I may hav eto borrow this line.......
Posted on 7/12/17 at 11:57 am to Damone
since when did deli meat pass for haute cuisine.
obviously brooks has never made a mole
obviously brooks has never made a mole
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:02 pm to Damone
quote:
Suddenly I saw her face freeze up as she was confronted with sandwiches named “Padrino” and “Pomodoro” and ingredients like soppressata, capicollo and a striata baguette. I
I have a college education, am part Italian, come from an upper middle class white family and don't have a clue what the frick these things are.
Liberals have an uncanny ability to make themselves feel intelligent and cultured by going to these places with fancy names for food or other items. I bet the chicken steak quesadilla covered in queso cheese dip taste better than that shite too.
I noticed in San Francisco every common item had the word smart in front of it. For example my hotel had a "smartfridge" stocked with "smart water". Nothing special about it, just a mini fridge with bottled water. But brilliant marketing toward the liberal general smugness and self importance
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:11 pm to Damone
quote:
As soon as they get money, they turn it into investments in their kids.
Holy Mother of God!!! For shame, for shame
quote:
Recently I took a friend with only a high school degree to lunch. Insensitively, I led her into a gourmet sandwich shop. Suddenly I saw her face freeze up as she was confronted with sandwiches named “Padrino” and “Pomodoro” and ingredients like soppressata, capicollo and a striata baguette. I quickly asked her if she wanted to go somewhere else and she anxiously nodded yes and we ate Mexican.
1st world problems
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:14 pm to Damone
quote:
Insensitively, I led her into a gourmet sandwich shop. Suddenly I saw her face freeze up as she was confronted with sandwiches named “Padrino” and “Pomodoro” and ingredients like soppressata, capicollo and a striata baguette. I quickly asked her if she wanted to go somewhere else and she anxiously nodded yes and we ate Mexican.
I don't know what some of that crap is and I have a graduate degree.
Maybe it has less to do with formal education and more to do with the writer being a pretentious douche. I'd feel more comfortable downing a couple of Coronas at a Mexican joint, too, if I had to be around that guy.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
did David Brooks just turn Alt-Lite?
Did you just start reading David Brooks? He's been making these arguments about culture for a while. I used some of his op-eds in my argumentation classes back when I taught. The kids were vicious in tearing apart his arguments.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:21 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Did you just start reading David Brooks?
i have no idea i don't really keep track of the names of the random authors of MSM articles that i read
i don't want to confer celebrity status on people who mistake luck and connected networks with brilliance and creativity
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
My only experience with his takes are when he is RT'd by someone ripping on him and when he was the token Debbie Downer during PBS's coverage of the RNC and general election.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:24 pm to Damone
It's pretty bigoted if this guy is arguing that having a dad who works and provides for his family is necessary to be successful. I've heard that from the left forever.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:29 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i don't want to confer celebrity status on people who mistake luck and connected networks with brilliance and creativity
David Brooks and Bret Stephens are compelling examples that meritocracy may be dead. Brooks was great for teaching argumentation, since he makes lots of leaps in 1000 words. My students used to tear him apart.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:41 pm to GumboPot
quote:
When will people finally figure out that working hard versus hanging out on the street corner drinking a 40 and smoking Newports will get you into a higher social class.
Certain subsets of society, subsets that transcend race mind you, have actually glorified these practices and will attack members of their social group who don't participate.
Any liberal who condones the use of words or phrases like "uppity", "uncle tom", "too good", "too white", or "snob" against anyone trying to improve their station is no true liberal, but a modern slavemaster up in the big house with no regard for the health or condition of those below him.
This post was edited on 7/12/17 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:59 pm to deltaland
quote:
capicollo
it's very similar to prosciutto except it's taken from the neck of the hog and then rolled like pancetta and then cured and air dried where as prosciutto is taken from the ham.
quote:
soppressata
is a sausage like salami it's every thing that's not fit to be put into something else. they start by boiling the pigs head and then striping it of all potential meat...cheeks, jowls, grind it put it in a casing and cure it.
quote:
striata baguette
it literally means striated baguette and it's not really a thing all proper baguettes are strait. they're using it to mean stretched but all baguettes would be stretched when formed as opposed to a boule which is round. the restaurant just added striata to be pretentious.
Posted on 7/12/17 at 1:25 pm to SlowFlowPro
I simply do not know enough to answer your questions. I am not interested in discussing any product of NYT, CNN, WaPo and the like because I see no useful purpose in so doing.
But I do read and I am interested in your opinions and impressions because I enjoy the food for thought.
But I do read and I am interested in your opinions and impressions because I enjoy the food for thought.
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