quote:
You make this statement, but you didn't qualify those statements are merely your opinion...they aren't facts. You believe there is some mystical distinction between one sin and another, hence the "grave" versus" venial" stuff. You believe there is a hell, therefore you argue for the various ways one can be sent to it. And of course, you believe there is a god.

It is a fact that this is what the Catholic Church teaches. I made no claim as to its truthfulness. Big difference.

quote:
Either you want to play fairly, or you want to play tennis without the net. Frankly, I'm with your first assertion that positive claims should have actual evidence to back them up. But I expect that to go both ways, otherwise all bets are off.

I hold myself to the same standard. If you like, I could quote the Catechism.

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Posted by GeauxTigerTM

Member since Sep 2006

30596 posts

Posted on 12/6/16 at 9:15 am to AUveritas

quote:
I made no claim as to its truthfulness. Big difference.

Then we are not at odds on that point.

quote:
I hold myself to the same standard. If you like, I could quote the Catechism.

Quoting the catechism would not, in any way, provide evidence of hell or the existence of your god. Just as me quoting from The Lord of the Rings would not prove the existence of Hobbits. While that sounds provocative, it's not meant to be. If I don not come to the table assuming The Bible is full of truths, then why would claims taken from it, or from works derived from faith in general in regards to the catechism hold any real weight for me? Do you hold claims made by devout Muslims in high regards in terms of truthfulness...they certainly believe them as fully as you do your own, after all. I'm equally skeptical of both since they are both faith based.

Please understand, I've come to expect this. You, as a believer, come with certain baggage that you assume we BOTH have to hold as fact, and you start discussions/arguments off as if we've agreed to those terms. The problem as I see it is, when the discussion is about the existence of a deity which you yourself (believers in general I mean to say) have defined as essentially un-discoverable by human senses but for faith, then you're not playing fairly. We skeptics do not believe your claims of the existence of a god...so simply asserting his existence as fact and then moving onward with what we should do as a matter of that fact is silly from our perspective.