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Message
re: Who builds Hamas' terror tunnels?
Posted on 7/31/14 at 10:14 am to Wolfhound45
Posted on 7/31/14 at 10:14 am to Wolfhound45
quote:
Look, I deplore what is going on. And I am praying for peace between the two factions. But are you trying to tell me the Palestinians were literally being starved by the Israelis prior to the current conflict? Because I am going to need a link (independent, verifiable) for that.
LINK
LINK
LINK
5
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:14 am to trackfan
I'm really very puzzled how a predominantly conservative board, that is presumably in favor of free markets and against foreign aid, can fail to connect the dots here. Nevertheless, I'll try to lay this out once again.
Israel blockaded construction materials from Gaza under a dual-use provision. This means that the only cement, lumber, and steel that was allowed in was "to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA [PA in Gaza = Hamas]"
Now game this out. Why is trade generally a better idea than foreign aid? Because aid can be skimmed by kleptocrats while trade empowers the private sector.
It makes less than no sense to say "we have to keep the blockade because terror tunnels!" The blockade has been in place for seven years, and that hasn't stopped the tunnels, has it? All it has done is wiped out the private sector in Gaza. 100% of the construction materials that go in above-ground go through Hamas. No amount of "international inspection" is going to prevent those materials from being diverted into tunnels. All you're doing is ensuring that the Palestinians who don't want to build tunnels, such as your restaurateurs, your landlords, your legitimate industrialists, the people who would rather not play ball with Hamas, can't get their hands on shite. (Especially because Hamas also has a hand in most of the unauthorized smuggling as well.)
When you outlaw concrete, only outlaws get concrete.
Israel blockaded construction materials from Gaza under a dual-use provision. This means that the only cement, lumber, and steel that was allowed in was "to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA [PA in Gaza = Hamas]"
Now game this out. Why is trade generally a better idea than foreign aid? Because aid can be skimmed by kleptocrats while trade empowers the private sector.
It makes less than no sense to say "we have to keep the blockade because terror tunnels!" The blockade has been in place for seven years, and that hasn't stopped the tunnels, has it? All it has done is wiped out the private sector in Gaza. 100% of the construction materials that go in above-ground go through Hamas. No amount of "international inspection" is going to prevent those materials from being diverted into tunnels. All you're doing is ensuring that the Palestinians who don't want to build tunnels, such as your restaurateurs, your landlords, your legitimate industrialists, the people who would rather not play ball with Hamas, can't get their hands on shite. (Especially because Hamas also has a hand in most of the unauthorized smuggling as well.)
When you outlaw concrete, only outlaws get concrete.
This post was edited on 7/31/14 at 11:44 am
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:16 am to trackfan
that last link states that they used a guideline of 2300 per person in Gaza to ensure the blockade let enough food in.
What is wrong with that? Show me a malnourished person who eats 2300 calories per day.
If Gaza didn't distribute that food adequately, then I'm missing how that is Israel's problem.
There are other arguments to be had here for sure, but saying that Israel is intentionally starving Gaza to death is false.
What is wrong with that? Show me a malnourished person who eats 2300 calories per day.
If Gaza didn't distribute that food adequately, then I'm missing how that is Israel's problem.
There are other arguments to be had here for sure, but saying that Israel is intentionally starving Gaza to death is false.
This post was edited on 7/31/14 at 11:24 am
Posted on 7/31/14 at 11:55 am to trackfan
quote:
trackfan
Thanks. Second two links are a bit more trustworthy (international media). The first, not so much. Reading through them now.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 2:18 pm to trackfan
quote:
LINK
LINK
LINK
Did you read your links?
quote:
While the embargo crippled Gaza's economy, at no point did observers identify a food crisis developing in the territory, whose residents rely heavily on international food aid.
Israel was forced to ease the land blockade under international pressure after the deadly attack on a Gaza-bound international flotilla in May 2010.
Since then consumer goods have been moving freely into Gaza from Israel, but construction materials are still largely barred entry. Israel argues that the Gaza militants could use goods like pipes and concrete in attacks on southern Israeli communities.
Israel states that the naval blockade, which remains in effect, is necessary to prevent smuggling of weapons at sea. The country also restricts exports, further constraining Gaza's economy.
If you read that with a non-biased eye it looks like Israel was letting in enough food to make sure people didn't starve (the 2,200 calorie count). That gets put out there as evidence that they are "restricting everything and want them to starve." It's like opposite world.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 6:16 pm to trackfan
quote:
trackfan
Somebody posts saying they don't believe anybody was starving.. your response was to show they were. Your link states:
quote:
Major Guy Inbar, an Israeli military spokesman, said the calculation, based on a person's average requirement of 2,300 calories a day, was meant to identify warning signs to help avoid a humanitarian crisis, and that it was never used to restrict the flow of food.
Our govrment recommends less for most of the population
Even more so, you links states:
quote:
The food calculation, made in January 2008, applied the average daily requirement of 2,279 calories per person, in line with World Health Organisation's guidelines, according to the document.
So they were allowing more than Our Gov recommends and the World Health Organization....
But wait... more from your link:
quote:
Israel also used baffling secret guidelines to differentiate between humanitarian necessities and non-essential luxuries. The outcome was that military bureaucrats enforcing the blockade allowed frozen salmon and low-fat yogurt into Gaza, but not coriander and instant coffee.
Coriander.... 1 cal per 1/4 cup. Instant coffee.. sucks.
THE SINGLE MOST HILARIOUS PART OF YOUR ARTICLE:
quote:
While the embargo crippled Gaza's economy, at no point did observers identify a food crisis developing in the territory
Goes back to what I have asked over and over. If you have to LIE in order to keep your position... maybe you position is just not worth standing up for.
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