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Message
re: Dennis Prager breaks down Middle East problem in a nut shell
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:11 am to CptRusty
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:11 am to CptRusty
shite for brains.
You said they "started" suicide bombing Israel. It is the other way around. Israel started suicide bombing the palestinians, invaded their homeland, killed their relatives, took their land, property and livelihoods and penned them up in a ghetto.
You said they "started" suicide bombing Israel. It is the other way around. Israel started suicide bombing the palestinians, invaded their homeland, killed their relatives, took their land, property and livelihoods and penned them up in a ghetto.
1
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:17 am to TK421
quote:
You didn't answer his question. Why is there a wall between Gaza and Egypt?
What is the answer then?
I assume that it is because the palestinians would try to escape their ghetto in order to either get their land back from the terrorist bombing occupiers or to get some place where they could live a free life.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:20 am to Flame Salamander
quote:
I assume that it is because the palestinians would try to escape their ghetto in order to either get their land back from the terrorist bombing occupiers or to get some place where they could live a free life.
So the Egyptians are also "locking up" the Palestinians????
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:20 am to Flame Salamander
quote:
Israel started suicide bombing the palestinians
I already said that I recognize Israel is not blameless. You seem to want to constantly deflect the conversation away from why the wall was constructed (even though you brought it up) and instead discuss Israel's history. Very well: Which point, from the balfour declaration until now would you say is when the Jews assumed the majority of the blame for this situation?
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:24 am to doubleb
quote:
I assume that it is because the palestinians would try to escape their ghetto in order to either get their land back from the terrorist bombing occupiers or to get some place where they could live a free life. So the Egyptians are also "locking up" the Palestinians????
No. You do understand that Egypt and Israel are two different countries. Gaza is in Israel, not Egypt.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:24 am to Flame Salamander
The Gaza walls with Israel were built in 1994.
The Gaza-Egypt Rafah crossing exists to keep the Palestinians from flooding over to the other side where there is also a city called Rafah,Egypt. Sort of like the Berlin wall divided Berlin. Egypt wanted to keep the Gaza people as "Palestinian" instead of being burdened with hundreds of thousands of refugees
LINK
The Israel-Gaza barrier is a border barrier first constructed by Israel in 1994 between the Gaza Strip and Israel. The barrier was extended in 2005 to cover the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt (the Egypt-Gaza barrier).
The fence runs along the entire land border of the Gaza Strip.[1] It is made up of wire fencing with posts, sensors and buffer zones on lands bordering Israel, and concrete and steel walls on lands bordering Egypt.
Entry into the Gaza Strip by land is through five crossing points: the northern Erez Crossing into Israel, the southern Rafah Crossing into Egypt, and the eastern Karni Crossing used only for cargo.[2] Other cargo crossing points are the Kerem Shalom Crossing on the border with Egypt and the Sufa Crossing farther north.[3] Tunnels have been dug under the barrier to enable smuggling of arms and materials into the territory, and for some movement of people.
The Gaza-Egypt Rafah crossing exists to keep the Palestinians from flooding over to the other side where there is also a city called Rafah,Egypt. Sort of like the Berlin wall divided Berlin. Egypt wanted to keep the Gaza people as "Palestinian" instead of being burdened with hundreds of thousands of refugees
LINK
The Israel-Gaza barrier is a border barrier first constructed by Israel in 1994 between the Gaza Strip and Israel. The barrier was extended in 2005 to cover the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt (the Egypt-Gaza barrier).
The fence runs along the entire land border of the Gaza Strip.[1] It is made up of wire fencing with posts, sensors and buffer zones on lands bordering Israel, and concrete and steel walls on lands bordering Egypt.
Entry into the Gaza Strip by land is through five crossing points: the northern Erez Crossing into Israel, the southern Rafah Crossing into Egypt, and the eastern Karni Crossing used only for cargo.[2] Other cargo crossing points are the Kerem Shalom Crossing on the border with Egypt and the Sufa Crossing farther north.[3] Tunnels have been dug under the barrier to enable smuggling of arms and materials into the territory, and for some movement of people.
This post was edited on 7/25/14 at 10:32 am
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:28 am to CptRusty
quote:
I already said that I recognize Israel is not blameless.
...and I believe that the palestinians are not blameless either.
I just hate the rampant one-sidedness that is presented in most of the media such that the general public doesn't understand what is really going on there.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:32 am to rtts48
quote:
The Gaza walls with Israel were built in 1994. The Gaza-Egypt Rafah crossing exists to keep the Palestinians from flooding over to the other side where there is also a city called Rafah,Egypt. Sort of like the Berlin wall divided Berlin. Egypt wanted to keep the Gaza people as "Palestinian" instead of being burdened with hundreds of thousands of refugees
Yes, and there were also already walls of sorts on the Israel/EgyPt border that date back to the wars. Both sides had trooPs built uP along that border.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:33 am to Flame Salamander
quote:
I assume that it is because the palestinians would try to escape their ghetto in order to either get their land back
So, you are suggesting that Egypt and Israel are in cahoots to keep the Palestinians locked up in Gaza?
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:36 am to Flame Salamander
quote:
Yes, and there were also already walls of sorts on the Israel/EgyPt border that date back to the wars. Both sides had trooPs built uP along that border.
It's obvious the Israelis aren't going to tear down their walls, and I don't blame them.
Try working on the Egyptians, maybe they will. Hamas isn't shooting at them.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:38 am to Mike da Tigah
I'm not necessarily pro-Palestine. All in all I think the Arabs are the much bigger douches in this deal, however:
What would you do if the UN declared LSU to be under the control of ....say....Alabama (or insert your most hated rival)? Alabama would say "If you would just accept our ownership of LSU, we could have peace". I think most people would say screw you and the UN.
His point about "there's never been an Arab state - there have been several jewish states"....Arabs didn't have states. It's like the Eddie Izzard comedy routine on England and India "You haven't got a flag" Iran, Iraq, Israel were all states created by peace treaties.
What would you do if the UN declared LSU to be under the control of ....say....Alabama (or insert your most hated rival)? Alabama would say "If you would just accept our ownership of LSU, we could have peace". I think most people would say screw you and the UN.
His point about "there's never been an Arab state - there have been several jewish states"....Arabs didn't have states. It's like the Eddie Izzard comedy routine on England and India "You haven't got a flag" Iran, Iraq, Israel were all states created by peace treaties.
This post was edited on 7/25/14 at 10:43 am
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:41 am to doubleb
quote:
It's obvious the Israelis aren't going to tear down their walls, and I don't blame them. Try working on the Egyptians, maybe they will. Hamas isn't shooting at them.
...and I doubt that the palestinians will stop shooting at the Israelis either. who could blame them?
That is why this problem has gone on so long and will likely go on.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:45 am to Flame Salamander
quote:
and I doubt that the palestinians will stop shooting at the Israelis either. who could blame them?
This has nothing to do with his point.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:57 am to Flame Salamander
quote:
...and I doubt that the palestinians will stop shooting at the Israelis either. who could blame them?
You posted that Gaza is a prison. I'm trying to find out why the Egyptians are locking up Palestinians in Gaza? You are avoiding the question, it's not about why the Jews and Palestinians are fighting, it's about why the Egyptians who once controlled Gaza are locking up Palestinians.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 10:58 am to TK421
quote:
It's obvious the Israelis aren't going to tear down their walls, and I don't blame them.
Try working on the Egyptians, maybe they will. Hamas isn't shooting at them.
the current Egyptian regime, headed by Sissi, is the enemy of the Muslim Brotherhood who are allies with Hamas. The MB were the govt with Morsi leadership until the coup. Sissi and his military junta consider Hamas to be the enemy of their regime so they won't be doing the Gazans any favors.
In fact a planeload of medical supplied and food arrived from Tunisia to Egypt but was refused entry to Gaza. They probably flew back home.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:03 am to a want
For centuries the Ottoman Empire controlled the area.
After they were defeated and their empire broken up in WWI there have been problems with all of the countries formed after their defeat.
Look at Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel and what was supposed to be another Arab state formed after WWII in Palestine.
It's a mess, and there's no doubt about that; but the biggest question is why haven't these nations "evolved" and lived in some sort of peace?
We can go back decades and find people on both sides who were terrorists, Nazi supporters, Communists, and others who were picked on and mistreated.
But it's 2014. Reality is Israel is over 60 years old. Israel isn't going anywhere. We can either continue to see periodic wars with innocents on both sides getting killed, or people can try to get along.
We all know what they are choosing to do, we see it everyday on the news.
After they were defeated and their empire broken up in WWI there have been problems with all of the countries formed after their defeat.
Look at Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel and what was supposed to be another Arab state formed after WWII in Palestine.
It's a mess, and there's no doubt about that; but the biggest question is why haven't these nations "evolved" and lived in some sort of peace?
We can go back decades and find people on both sides who were terrorists, Nazi supporters, Communists, and others who were picked on and mistreated.
But it's 2014. Reality is Israel is over 60 years old. Israel isn't going anywhere. We can either continue to see periodic wars with innocents on both sides getting killed, or people can try to get along.
We all know what they are choosing to do, we see it everyday on the news.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:07 am to doubleb
the borders after WW1 were bogus and are breaking up and reforming just as Yugoslavia did about 20 years ago.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:13 am to doubleb
quote:Egypt once controlled Gaza but they signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979 renouncing all their claims to Gaza in exchange for the return of the Sinai. They have been allies ever since. The Egyptian street sympathizes with the Palestinians but since the treaty the military leadership of Egypt, with a brief interruption during the Morsi administration, has been more or less allied with Israel.
I'm trying to find out why the Egyptians are locking up Palestinians in Gaza? You are avoiding the question, it's not about why the Jews and Palestinians are fighting, it's about why the Egyptians who once controlled Gaza are locking up Palestinians.
They could open the border for immigration, but Egypt has no interest in doing that because their economy is already in the shitter and the Sinai is already a poor area of Egypt. They don't want to deal with an influx of Palestinian refugees. Especially when those refugees will be likely to sympathize with the opposition rather than the al-Sisi regime. They could open the border for trade, but sealing off Gaza suits al-Sisi as much as it does Israel. He runs a police state over there, and Hamas is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood. Why take the risk or expense of inspecting or regulating trade when you can just cut off the border entirely? The costs of the trade-off don't accrue to him, only the benefits.
If the point you're trying to make is that Egypt shares moral culpability for the Gaza blockade, that's certainly true, although assigning blame to "Egypt" as a whole is a little more problematic than "Israel." (Dig those 2014 election results.) If the point you're trying to make is that "Gaza is Egypt," or "why don't they just go to Egypt" or some other typical "squirrel!" argument to get Israel off the hook 100%, then no, that's ignoring the historical and current politics.
This post was edited on 7/25/14 at 11:14 am
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:21 am to Iosh
Even during the Morsi Muslim Brotherhood stint, the Gaza-Egypt border was not noticeably better for teh Gazans since the Egyptian military acted as an independent body keeping the status quo. The Eygptian army had a very contentious relationship with the MB, showed them no respect, and eventually overthrew the MB killing thousands adn then sentencing hundreds more to be executed. Sissi is a very evil Saddam type character, but he's pro Israeli so will get the US Congress on his side eventually.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:23 am to rtts48
Yes, and so were the borders from WWII, etc.
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