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Posted on 4/17/14 at 12:53 pm to trackfan
SOCOM wouldn't exist.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 1:01 pm to texashorn
quote:I also seem to remember (although I was just a kid) that a question came up during the debate about nuclear weapons and Carter said he consulted with his daughter Amy about it (who was only 11 or 12 years old). There was alot of "WTF?" about that.
What happened between that poll and the election was the only debate between Reagan and Carter, during which Reagan asked the rhetorical question, "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"
After that, the election swung to Reagan, who won by 10 percentage points.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 1:36 pm to trackfan
I have to chime in to say I find it tough to give Carter much grief about the attempted rescue. It was a bold move that failed and he flat out owned it. I was old enough to remember that.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 2:26 pm to VOR
Apply Rumsfeld's adage about going to war with the Army you have to the hostage rescue mission. There was no unity of command among the various Air Force, Army and Navy units and personnel. They did not even have common communication and/or communication security equipment. That was the military Jimmy Carter permitted to exist, and assigned the mission. So he was deserving of criticism for the mission failing.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 2:29 pm to VOR
quote:I don't either. Symbolic of many aspects his administration though.
I have to chime in to say I find it tough to give Carter much grief about the attempted rescue.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 2:41 pm to VOR
quote:
I have to chime in to say I find it tough to give Carter much grief about the attempted rescue. It was a bold move that failed and he flat out owned it. I was old enough to remember that.
I don't think anyone is blaming Carter for the failed rescue.
Carter took the blame for it because that was the kind of guy he was. I will repeat what I said before about Carter may very well have been too good of a man to be president.
That all being said, many people see the failed rescue mission as the so called cherry on top of a fail of a four years in office when they look back on it today.
Had that rescue actually worked, things could have been very different. And how he is remembered would be absolutely remembered much differently.
There would still be movies being made about a successful rescue much like I believe the sword of Gideon was a movie made about the Israeli airport rescue...
Posted on 4/17/14 at 2:46 pm to trackfan
1) Would he have been reelected?
2) Would the U.S. still be at odds with Iran?
3) If you answered yes to #1, would Reagan have ever been elected President?
4) How different would American-Soviet relations have been?
Don't know the answers to those questions, but I do know if RR hadn't been elected:
Merle Haggard
Junior Johnson
Joe Don Looney
would have never received presidential pardons.
2) Would the U.S. still be at odds with Iran?
3) If you answered yes to #1, would Reagan have ever been elected President?
4) How different would American-Soviet relations have been?
Don't know the answers to those questions, but I do know if RR hadn't been elected:
Merle Haggard
Junior Johnson
Joe Don Looney
would have never received presidential pardons.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 2:53 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:
Apply Rumsfeld's adage about going to war with the Army you have to the hostage rescue mission. There was no unity of command among the various Air Force, Army and Navy units and personnel. They did not even have common communication and/or communication security equipment. That was the military Jimmy Carter permitted to exist, and assigned the mission. So he was deserving of criticism for the mission failing.
Do you also believe that Obama deserves all the praise he's gotten for the bin Laden raid?
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:04 pm to trackfan
quote:
1) Would he have been reelected?
2) Would the U.S. still be at odds with Iran?
3) If you answered yes to #1, would Reagan have ever been elected President?
4) How different would American-Soviet relations have been?
What if the door hadn't locked behind the watergate spy clown?
Would Nixon have abandoned the Sha of Iran like the Carter administration did in giving the Shia a green light to start this Jihad?
How different would American Chinese relations be today if Nixon would have been allowed to develop these in his visionary light 40 years sooner?
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:45 pm to trackfan
1) Would he have been reelected? No. Too many other problems.
2) Would the U.S. still be at odds with Iran? No, Jimmy would have caved in to them.
3) If you answered yes to #1, would Reagan have ever been elected President?
Does not apply as Reagan would have and did whip him like a red headed stepchild.
4) How different would American-Soviet relations have been? Under Jimmy's rule, the Soviet flag might have eventually been flying over our land. At the very least, we would have lost so much respct with other countries that it would have taken a very, very long time to make it back up.
2) Would the U.S. still be at odds with Iran? No, Jimmy would have caved in to them.
3) If you answered yes to #1, would Reagan have ever been elected President?
Does not apply as Reagan would have and did whip him like a red headed stepchild.
4) How different would American-Soviet relations have been? Under Jimmy's rule, the Soviet flag might have eventually been flying over our land. At the very least, we would have lost so much respct with other countries that it would have taken a very, very long time to make it back up.
Posted on 4/17/14 at 3:50 pm to damnedoldtigah
quote:
2) Would the U.S. still be at odds with Iran? No, Jimmy would have caved in to them.
What do you mean by "caved into them"?
Posted on 4/18/14 at 7:46 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
Apply Rumsfeld's adage about going to war with the Army you have to the hostage rescue mission.
I rarely apply Rumsfeld's wisdom or analysis to anything, thank you very much.
Posted on 4/18/14 at 8:45 am to trackfan
quote:No, the key word in your question is "all". Obama is not deserving of all the accolades, but he did deserve a great deal of them. Carter was not deserving of all the criticism, but he was deserving of some of the criticism, which is what my statement intended to convey.
Do you also believe that Obama deserves all the praise he's gotten for the bin Laden raid?
Posted on 4/18/14 at 9:25 am to Poodlebrain
Come on, bro, don't be silly. We ONLY deal in absolutes here.
Posted on 4/18/14 at 9:37 am to trackfan
quote:
Or Seal Team 6, but let's get back to the questions in the OP.
The embryonic Delta Force was the lead proponent, but the mission was impossible.
Charlie Beckwith was one of the finest warriors the United States has ever produced. From the failure of OEC, the 160th SOAR (Night Stalkers) was born, as was JSOC. While it has not been all wine and roses since, SOCOM's mission success rate has been extraordinary - and even with a major equipment failure (Neptune Spear), the overall mission was a success, with no casualties.
This post was edited on 4/18/14 at 9:38 am
Posted on 4/18/14 at 9:50 am to VOR
quote:Why the sudden modesty? You rarely apply any wisdom or analysis to anything.
I rarely apply Rumsfeld's wisdom or analysis to anything, thank you very much.
Sometimes it is just too easy.
Posted on 4/18/14 at 10:12 am to trackfan
quote:
1) Would he have been reelected?
Probably not. Economy was terrible, and you didn't have a complacent news media at the time.
quote:
2) Would the U.S. still be at odds with Iran?
Sure. This wouldn't have changed anything.
quote:Probably no different
4) How different would American-Soviet relations have been?
In the grand scale of things, the failure of this was probably more beneficial than it succeeding. Tier 1 SpecOps was a direct result of this, including having aviators trained specifically for these types of missions. Its made that part of our military better than it would've ever been had this succeeded.
Posted on 4/18/14 at 10:14 am to elprez00
quote:
including having aviators trained specifically for these types of missions.
You learn more from 1 failure than 1000 successes.
Troof.
Posted on 4/18/14 at 10:37 am to VOR
quote:
It was a bold move that failed and he flat out owned it.
he at least did that
if it had been under Obama, we would have had Jay Carney at the podium telling us how the mission was actually a great success
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