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1
Posted on 4/18/13 at 8:53 am to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
And as a Paypal competitor, and as means of anonymous/immoral/illegal transactions, and as household cleaning miracle, an alternative to fossil fuels, a cure for cancer, etc.
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:15 am to LSURussian
"If you don't know, then I can't help you."
"It is because I say it is."
"Read the OP article."
what a bunch of obfuscation. no straight answers from anyone.
Ponzis require a fraudster who takes in "investment" money, and then pays off old investors with new investment money until the scheme collapses.
So let's start at square 1. Who is the fraudster? The mysterious Nakamoto? Mt Gox? Some other unknown person/entity?
Bitcoin is open source. It is traded on at least one exchange. No one person or entity is collecting all the "investment" money (although Mt Gox handles a vast majority of BTC-USD exchanges).
Throw me a bone here. I'm not a financial guy. I'm dumber than everyone in this thread. All I wanna know is: what makes everyone think bitcoin in a ponzi scheme?
"It is because I say it is."
"Read the OP article."
what a bunch of obfuscation. no straight answers from anyone.
Ponzis require a fraudster who takes in "investment" money, and then pays off old investors with new investment money until the scheme collapses.
So let's start at square 1. Who is the fraudster? The mysterious Nakamoto? Mt Gox? Some other unknown person/entity?
Bitcoin is open source. It is traded on at least one exchange. No one person or entity is collecting all the "investment" money (although Mt Gox handles a vast majority of BTC-USD exchanges).
Throw me a bone here. I'm not a financial guy. I'm dumber than everyone in this thread. All I wanna know is: what makes everyone think bitcoin in a ponzi scheme?
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:22 am to gizmoflak
quote:You just described bitcoin perfectly, except you left out the part about the underlying asset not providing a cash flow or profit on its own.
Ponzis require a fraudster who takes in "investment" money, and then pays off old investors with new investment money until the scheme collapses.
If you want to believe that bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme, that's okay with me. But I have to remind you that even the bitcoinbots on their message boards frequently acknowledge it is a Ponzi scheme but they don't care. One even wrote, "In the future when someone runs a sophisticated, technology based Ponzi scheme, they will call it being bitcoined."
quote:We finally agree on something!
I'm dumber than everyone in this thread.
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:24 am to LSURussian
back to sqaure 1:
Who is the fraudster?
Who is the fraudster?
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:26 am to gizmoflak
quote:
So let's start at square 1. Who is the fraudster? The mysterious Nakamoto? Mt Gox? Some other unknown person/entity?
Bitcoin is open source. It is traded on at least one exchange. No one person or entity is collecting all the "investment" money (although Mt Gox handles a vast majority of BTC-USD exchanges).
Which begs an even bigger question. What if this Mr. Sakimoto didn't actually cap the number of coins? What if he has another $1,000,000,000 worth that he will dump periodically. Would the world know? What happens to bitcoin wallets that get lost? Do they go away forever?
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:28 am to Broke
quote:
Which begs an even bigger question. What if this Mr. Sakimoto didn't actually cap the number of coins? What if he has another $1,000,000,000 worth that he will dump periodically. Would the world know? What happens to bitcoin wallets that get lost? Do they go away forever?
I'm pretty sure bitcoin is open source.
No one has found a leak in the code or a back door.
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:32 am to LSURussian
Call bitcoin a scam or a delusion all you want. That's perfectly fine.
But the allegation is that it is an elaborate ponzi fraud. I don't see it.. . . And ZERO facts, if true, have been proferred in support of this allegation.
But the allegation is that it is an elaborate ponzi fraud. I don't see it.. . . And ZERO facts, if true, have been proferred in support of this allegation.
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:33 am to Broke
quote:
Which begs an even bigger question.
No it doesn't....
quote:
What if this Mr. Sakimoto didn't actually cap the number of coins?
....because only tech illiterate morons would ask such a question.
quote:
What if he has another $1,000,000,000 worth that he will dump periodically.
quote:
Would the world know?
Yes. It would be able to be seen now. No need to wait until he dumped them. Reason: The open nature of bitcoin.
quote:
What happens to bitcoin wallets that get lost? Do they go away forever?
Yep.
I mean, seriously, if you guys aren't going to actually do your homework and understand bitcoin, why participate in these threads and ask stupid questions that I've answered a hundred times already?
If you truly aren't interested in the technical details of it, then you aren't fit to debate them.
This post was edited on 4/18/13 at 9:36 am
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:36 am to gizmoflak
quote:The entity(ies) who created the scam. They allowed themselves the window to hoard a substantial number of bitcoins with the hope that the delusional paranoids of the world would bid its price up just so they could sell their large stash at select price points as new money came in to pay them off.
back to sqaure 1:
Who is the fraudster?
Posted on 4/18/13 at 9:52 am to gizmoflak
quote:
But the allegation is that it is an elaborate ponzi fraud. I don't see it.. . . And ZERO facts, if true, have been proferred in support of this allegation.
Elaborate Ponzi schemes don't leave written notes around saying "this is a Ponzi scheme."
Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme investment fund only became confirmed that it was a Ponzi scheme when Madoff himself confessed to it, although there had been several entities which suspected he was running a Ponzi scheme which they couldn't prove as a "fact."
It appears the only thing that will qualify as a "fact" for you to be convinced that bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme will be for the inventors of it to issue a press release confessing to it, just like Madoff did.
I am saying bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme because it has all the characteristics of a Ponzi scheme, albeit a very sophisticated, high tech one that preys upon the paranoia of the marginal underclass of humanity. Like wiki, for example.....
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:18 am to WikiTiger
quote:
....because only tech illiterate morons would ask such a question.
This one I'll give you. I am pretty tech illiterate.
quote:
mean, seriously, if you guys aren't going to actually do your homework and understand bitcoin, why participate in these threads and ask stupid questions that I've answered a hundred times already?
If you truly aren't interested in the technical details of it, then you aren't fit to debate them.
Being a Financial Advisor, business owner, adjunct econ and finance professor, I think I'm at least mildly qualified to debate the topic. Don't you think?
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:23 am to Broke
quote:
Being a Financial Advisor, business owner, adjunct econ and finance professor, I think I'm at least mildly qualified to debate the topic. Don't you think?
I think you're qualified to debate the economic aspects of it, but not the technical side of it.
And hey, I'm just a bumbling tech nerd, so I may not be qualified to discuss the economic aspects but then again I may be qualified enough after all.
The difference between the two is that the tech side is a hard science, based on coded algorithms that are verifiable, unchanging, and predictable. Economics, on the other hard, is a shite science full of politics and opinion.
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:25 am to WikiTiger
quote:
Economics, on the other hard, is a shite science
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:26 am to LSURussian
quote:
The entity(ies) who created the scam. They allowed themselves the window to hoard a substantial number of bitcoins with the hope that the delusional paranoids of the world would bid its price up just so they could sell their large stash at select price points as new money came in to pay them off.
congrats, you just described every IPO
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:31 am to LSURussian
quote:
Elaborate Ponzi schemes don't leave written notes around saying "this is a Ponzi scheme."
agree
quote:
Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme investment fund only became confirmed that it was a Ponzi scheme when Madoff himself confessed to it, although there had been several entities which suspected he was running a Ponzi scheme which they couldn't prove as a "fact."
agree
quote:
It appears the only thing that will qualify as a "fact" for you to be convinced that bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme will be for the inventors of it to issue a press release confessing to it, just like Madoff did.
disagree
quote:
I am saying bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme because it has all the characteristics of a Ponzi scheme, albeit a very sophisticated, high tech one that preys upon the paranoia of the marginal underclass of humanity. Like wiki, for example.....
please tell me, what are those characteristics? WHO is defrauding everyone by collecting investment money and then paying out new investors with that money?
Bitcoin is more akin to facebook IPO than Madoff. Delusion =/= ponzi
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:31 am to gizmoflak
quote:
you just described every IPO
Wrong.
If you willfully ignore the cash/profit generating prospects of the company going public, which is what investors are buying into, then all you're really trying to do is play silly gotcha' games with zero substance or thought.
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:35 am to gizmoflak
quote:I see the basic problem.
then paying out new investors
You really don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is.
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:40 am to LSURussian
12 pages and we have yet to hear credible arguments as to why bitcoin is a ponzi scheme
I've come to realize that the anti-bitcoin crowd just wants to paint the Ponzi scarlett letter all over it for whatever petty reason.
FTR, I'm not sitting on either side of the fence, and I don't have a skin in the bitcoin game, but all the incessant & disingenuous denigration of bitcoin is really annoying. It prevents any rational discussion of what, to me, is an intriguing technology.
I've come to realize that the anti-bitcoin crowd just wants to paint the Ponzi scarlett letter all over it for whatever petty reason.
FTR, I'm not sitting on either side of the fence, and I don't have a skin in the bitcoin game, but all the incessant & disingenuous denigration of bitcoin is really annoying. It prevents any rational discussion of what, to me, is an intriguing technology.
This post was edited on 4/18/13 at 10:40 am
Posted on 4/18/13 at 10:42 am to gizmoflak
quote:
we have yet to hear credible arguments as to why bitcoin is a ponzi scheme
The explanation has been covered. You choose to ignore it.
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