Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass? - Page 4 - TigerDroppings.com

Posted byMessage
Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


Is Joe Biden a "real Catholic"?





Back to top
Bunsbert Montcroff
Arizona Fan
Phoenix AZ
Member since Jan 2008
4511 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

i think it is a statement on a few things.

1. their acceptance of lies/manipulation
2. their always-changing sets of ideals
3. the fact that even a progressive in a society consistently moving left, requires a Christian as president

4. and a certain narrow mindedness shared by anti-religious zealots of every political stripe - "he's too smart to be an atheist". they cannot imagine that any intelligent or successful individual can be religious. this despite the myriad of ways that one can experience religion and express religiousity.






Back to top
SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
294164 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

Really we don't know Obama's inner religious beliefs, and what it means to be a true Christian is itself a contested matter.

fair enough, but how do the anti-religious progressives rectify this with their support of obama, who OUTWARDLY is religious and claims to base policy in religion

either they accept it as a lie, or they are hypocrites

quote:

These are basically the equivalents of "noble lies" in my view;

a foundation of progressivism

progressivism cannot exist without noble lies. they are foundational blocks of their "ends justify the means" philosophy

quote:

Another sort of ok lies are state secrets in times of warfare or surrounding national security.

hiding information is different than intentionally spreading false information

quote:

Bad lies would include hypocrisy

like anti-religous people supporting a christian president?

or, at the least, anti-religious people who claim religion is for idiots while supporting the policies of a person they identify as an idiot via religious affiliation

quote:

or any lie that covers over a crime or something genuinely immoral.

lying about faith to trick the population into supporting you is very immoral in my book







Back to top
crawdaddy52
Vanderbilt Fan
Member since Dec 2010
835 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


Why do right wing zealots pose questions to which they are sure that they have the answer. Why does this answer include a vast conspiracy whose primary purpose is ruin America, with socialist polices and propaganda, that will ruin America for all the real Americans.





Back to top
  Replies (0)
Interception
Providence Fan
Member since Nov 2008
11089 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

Is Joe Biden a "real Catholic"?


What does that even mean?






Back to top
JEAUXBLEAUX
LSU Fan
Bayonne, NJ
Member since May 2006
44898 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


Lying about faith too trick the populace is immoral.

100% on target.

Just like the phonies who wear lapel pins or end every speech with God Bless the US and then do their best to screw all the people.






Back to top
  Replies (0)
Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

fair enough, but how do the anti-religious progressives rectify this with their support of obama, who OUTWARDLY is religious and claims to base policy in religion

either they accept it as a lie, or they are hypocrites


This really doesn't seem that hard of a nut to crack. Unless anti-religion is someone's main issue (which would be nuts imo), I don't see why anyone should really care about that much about someone's statements of their beliefs as long as they agree with their policies.

Look, I know anti-religious conservatives. They still vote for religious politicians, even--gasp--Mormons.

quote:

a foundation of progressivism

progressivism cannot exist without noble lies. they are foundational blocks of their "ends justify the means" philosophy


No, the noble lie is one of the foundations of politics. Cf. the Declaration of Independence, John Locke on the state of nature, etc. It really has nothing to do with "ends justifying the means", which is a wholly separate issue.

quote:

hiding information is different than intentionally spreading false information


Usually these go hand-in-hand. I.e., there's an "official story" that doesn't reflect so well "what really happened".

quote:

or, at the least, anti-religious people who claim religion is for idiots while supporting the policies of a person they identify as an idiot via religious affiliation


again, couldnt you same the same thing about all the evangelicals and catholics who voted for the mormon romney?

quote:

lying about faith to trick the population into supporting you is very immoral in my book


I disagree. I am not religious, so what does it matter to me what mythologies people use? The example of Lincoln comes to mind, as does the example of Jefferson. I'm not really sure you can call what their use of Christian terminology, etc. "lies".






Back to top
Zed
Alabama Fan
Member since Feb 2010
7934 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?
Like many in this thread, I think he's an atheist. If he pretends to be a christian, it's because christians won't elect atheists. His lie is necessitated by religious discrimination.

If lying about one's religious beliefs is the only way for an atheist to participate in our government, so be it.






Back to top
  Replies (0)
Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


Well, I think it's related question. Joe Biden claims to be a Catholic, but is pro-choice, etc. Do you think he's "lying" about his Catholicism?

The question obviously depends on what you think a "real Catholic" is, and what sort of policies they would support. I raise the point by analogy to the question of whether Obama is a "real Christian"--my point is that I don't think it's at all clear what it means to be a real Christian.






Back to top
SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
294164 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

I don't see why anyone should really care about that much about someone's statements of their beliefs as long as they agree with their policies.

if they didn't care about statements of belief, they wouldn't actively mock statements of belief

quote:

It really has nothing to do with "ends justifying the means",

lying to a population to enact "superior" policy is basically THE example of the ends (lying) justifying the means (superior policy in the liar's eyes)

quote:

couldnt you same the same thing about all the evangelicals and catholics who voted for the mormon romney?

they call mormons idiots or just disagree with the religion?

i never said that you couldn't/shouldn't vote for a candidate outside of your belief system

quote:

I am not religious, so what does it matter to me what mythologies people use?

you should care that the person lies about it, not that their mythology may differ from your preferred mythology






Back to top
SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
294164 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

t. I raise the point by analogy to the question of whether Obama is a "real Christian"--my point is that I don't think it's at all clear what it means to be a real Christian.

i don't think Obama believes in any god, and i am very sure that most obama supporters who are anti-religion believe the same

by default he cannot be a "real christian" if he doesn't believe in the Christian God






Back to top
ColaTiger
LSU Fan
Louisiana
Member since Jan 2013
2193 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

If progressives are admitting that they believe Obama is lying about something as big as religious faith, why do any of you trust him or vote for him?

It doesn't make any sense how anyone can support someone like that.

Well, personally, I'm not retarded and I understand that politicians say what people want to hear to get votes. It's called politics.






Back to top
Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31634 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

All politicians seeking election and criminals seeking parole are devoted Christians.


Keith Ellison sends a shout out.






Back to top
ironsides
LSU Fan
Nashville, TN
Member since May 2006
5919 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

Well, personally, I'm not retarded and I understand that politicians say what people want to hear to get votes. It's called politics.


And:
1) You're okay with this?
2) How do you know what you are actually voting for?






Back to top
  Replies (0)
Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

if they didn't care about statements of belief, they wouldn't actively mock statements of belief


There are different kinds of caring. I do not care whether someone thinks LSU is an evil school and an evil football teams for political purposes, whereas I do care in general.

quote:

lying to a population to enact "superior" policy is basically THE example of the ends (lying) justifying the means (superior policy in the liar's eyes)


This is not really true in the case of religion; many people--including myself--think that religious language and notions of the sacred, etc. go hand-in-hand with political community as such. So even if certain things aren't strictly "true"--like god's providence extends over america--such things aren't necessarily "means" to an "end", but wrapped up in the "end" itself. In other words, they can't be distinguished from the end--which in this case would be patriotism or something.

On Mormons, absolutely. In fact, many Christians believe that not only are Mormons beliefs obviously stupid, but they are straight out evil.

quote:

you should care that the person lies about it, not that their mythology may differ from your preferred mythology


Well, I don't care. Or let me put it this way: I don't care for political purposes. If we were having a private discussion or an "academic" discussion about what it true, then I would care. But I don't think politics is about truth and honesty, except when being dishonest is a crime or manifestly subversive to the political community. I mean, you are a lawyer--are you scandalized when lawyers aren't 100% truthful? Same with businessmen. Seems to me that the issue of truth and lies and honesty in all these "language communities" is more complicated than you are making it out to be.






Back to top
SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
294164 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

'm not retarded and I understand that politicians say what people want to hear to get votes. It's called politics.

so how can you trust any of his stances?

how do you know when he's lying or being truthful?

do you think he supported gay marriage in 2008?






Back to top
  Replies (0)
JEAUXBLEAUX
LSU Fan
Bayonne, NJ
Member since May 2006
44898 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


All politicians who want to win? are Christians? Keith Ellison
Leiberman
Debbie Wassherman
Schumer
Steve Cohen
and on and on
Eric Cantor
Jay Dardenne

and on






Back to top
Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

i don't think Obama believes in any god, and i am very sure that most obama supporters who are anti-religion believe the same


This seems to me to be a very shaky judgment.






Back to top
JEAUXBLEAUX
LSU Fan
Bayonne, NJ
Member since May 2006
44898 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


Why should that matter? Belief in religion is personal. But... as a politician he puts on the show for America. Whether it's phony or not only he knows.





Back to top
Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


Well part of my point is that the issue of "phoniness" itself isn't at all clear...maybe he's a very heterodox Christian, for instance. It's also pretty clear that he doesn't really have a holy roller pretense.

On the subject of gay marriage, it's obvious that he wasn't totally forthright about his conscience on this issue. On the other hand, I used to agree with his position on civil unions--not because I was absolutely certain that gay marriage was bad, but because I was conflicted on the matter. Now I'm not conflicted.

So another thing to consider is that maybe Obama, like many other people, has complicated and sometimes self-contradictory beliefs.






Back to top
  Replies (0)


Back to top