Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt? - Page 8 - TigerDroppings.com

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Gravitiger
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


quote:

There may be an issue with how the NCAA interprets the class per LSU's entry requirements though. For example, it could pass the clearinghouse for a kid to go to Bama, but the NCAA may think LSU allowing it would be too liberal an interpretation of its own admissions standard.
Pretty positive the NCAA does not consider that.






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MOT
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


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SEC rules give you only 25 initial counters per year. If a kid doesn't qualify, he still counts towards that number. No other conference is working under those constraints

Both the NCAA and SEC allow 25 initial counters. It is not spelled out in the NCAA nor the SEC bylaws that academic casualties are considered an initial counter. They are considered in the annual signee limit which is also 25 by both NCAA and SEC standards.






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tmc94
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Member since Sep 2012
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


Agreed. I shouldn't have said initial counters because that is confusing and the SEC rule has nothing to do with that. The new NCAA rule is that all schools can sign a maximum of 28 players to LOIs but only 25 of those can actually be admitted, ie, 3 are set up for academic (and other) casualties. In addition, if 20 of your 28 don't qualify, you could then proceed to sign 20 more early enrollees.

The SEC rule is much more stringent and you are only allowed to sign 25 players to LOIs per year (Feb + the following EEs). Thus sign an LOI and you count towards that. No takebacks. You get no breaks or extra EE spots for non-qualifiers.

ETA - in both cases, you are allowed a maximum of 25 initial counters



This post was edited on 2/20 at 11:30 pm


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MOT
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


quote:

The new NCAA rule is that all schools can sign a maximum of 28 players to LOIs but only 25 of those can actually be admitted

The NCAA originally lowered it to 28 a few years ago, but the new rule is 25 as of this year.






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tmc94
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


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The NCAA originally lowered it to 28 a few years ago, but the new rule is 25 as of this year.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect and it is still 28 (actually I'm pretty sure the 28 rule only went into effect for the 2013 class***).

LINK
quote:

NCAA Bylaw 15.5.6.1 limits FBS football programs to a total number of scholarships to 85 "counters" annually including 25 scholarships for "initial counters." Counters (NCAA Bylaw 15.02.3) are individuals who are receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport, initial counters (NCAA Bylaw 15.02.3.1) are individuals who are receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. Bylaw 13.9.2.3 limits schools to signing 28 NLI from initial signing day through May 31.[1]


***Nope I'm wrong. As of the NCAA rulebook, the rule went into effect on 8/1/10 meaning it would have began effective the 2011 football signings.



This post was edited on 2/20 at 11:43 pm


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tmc94
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Member since Sep 2012
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


Ok, after looking at wiki, i realized that's the 2011-2012 handbook they are linking and with a bit of searching, was able to pull up the new one (unfortunately I can't copy it easily bc it's a pdf). It appears you are correct on the 25 signees. It also added another addendum about EEs (which is the primary way around the rule for non-SEC schools as EEs don't count at all towards the 25).

However it doesn't change the basic premise which is true that the SEC rule does not allow you to get that spot back for non-qualifiers and you do in other conferences. There is no harm in TCU signing him and no damage done if he doesn't qualify because they can then use that spot for an EE next January. LSU could not.



This post was edited on 2/20 at 11:56 pm


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MOT
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


quote:

It also added another addendum about EEs (which is the primary way around the rule for non-SEC schools as EEs don't count at all towards the 25).

The addendum states they do not count in the signee limit as long as they count back to the previous initial counter limit. Example: If a January 2013 early enrollee does not count back, then they count toward the 2013 signee limit. If they count back to the 2012 initial counter limit, then they do not count against the 2013 signee limit.

quote:


However it doesn't change the basic premise which is true that the SEC rule does not allow you to get that spot back for non-qualifiers and you do in other conferences.

They all have the same signee limit of 25 now so the risk is the same. If he doesn't qualify at TCU it simply goes down as a wasted spot as one of their possible 25 signees in 2013, the same as it would at LSU, Oregon, Boise, Duke, or anyone else in Division I.






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tmc94
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


quote:

They all have the same signee limit of 25 now so the risk is the same. If he doesn't qualify at TCU it simply goes down as a wasted spot as one of their possible 25 signees in 2013, the same as it would at LSU, Oregon, Boise, Duke, or anyone else in Division I.


no it's still not. The SEC is only allowed 25 LOIs period. Other conferences can take EEs to get to the initial counter number. It's maybe not obvious what that difference is but there is a difference.

To use this specific case, if LSU signs Lawson and he does not qualify, you cannot fill with an EE because SEC schools are counting LOIs and he signed one so he counts. TCU can because they are only counting towards initial counters and a kid that doesn't qualify is never an initial counter, regardless of number of LOIs. Hopefully that makes sense.



This post was edited on 2/21 at 1:21 am


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MOT
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


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no it's still not. The SEC is only allowed 25 LOIs period

Every school in Division I is only allowed 25 LOIs period.

If you want to talk about what qualifies as an initial counter it is a different discussion and a different set of bylaws all together. The SEC bylaws would have to state specific differences from the NCAA in order for whatever you are trying to say to make sense, and I've yet to find where they spell out the differences as it pertains to the definition of an initial counter. If you could provide the link to the bylaw it would help in clarifying your point.







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Indiana Tiger
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


MOT, the SEC is implementing the rule as it chooses, not as written. For example, say a non qualifier signed a LOI in the 2012 class. Given the written rule and assuming there was space under the 85, an EE in jan 13 could fill the nonqualifier's initial counter spot. But it is pretty clear now that the SEC does not allow this. In the SEC an EE can only count back if he fits under the LOI limit (and the 85).

So for new enrollees (I have no idea how they would handle a walkon getting a ship after his freshman year), there isn't much distinction between an LOI and an initial counter in the SEC. Other conferences, if they go by how the rule is written, have an advantage when dealing with academic risks.

We screwed up when we signed Peterson and Fehoka (sp) instead of offering them grey shirts. Signing them cost us 2 spots that could have been used this year or the next.






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MOT
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


I respect your opinion IT because I know you have taken more time to research this than most, but as you know I disagree on this particular point. With that being said I have a few questions....

If the SEC has its members operating under a different set of rules than the NCAA, why is it not noted in the conference bylaws? In every other case where there is a difference it is clearly spelled out. Prior to this year when the SEC only allowed 25 LOIs, while the NCAA allowed 28, it was specifically stated. How can they enforce a rule that doesn't officially exist?

Also, LSU accepted 24 LOIs in 2012 and three did not qualify. How were we recently able to add 27 instead of 26?






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ForeLSU
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


quote:

We screwed up when we signed Peterson and Fehoka (sp) instead of offering them grey shirts. Signing them cost us 2 spots that could have been used this year or the next.


an interesting situation, you'd think they could just come in based on their original LOI and not take up new slots, but that LOI is rendered null and void if they don't qualify. However, a player doesn't have to sign an LOI. This is one way schools could get around the LOI issue with EE's, as long as they have room to back-count initial qualifiers. Of course you lose the protections the LOI provides.






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MOT
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


EE's do not sign LOIs unless they are a juco player. Stokes would have signed one....Diarse, Pocic, Jennings, Rettig, etc would not have.





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Indiana Tiger
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


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If the SEC has its members operating under a different set of rules than the NCAA, why is it not noted in the conference bylaws?

I don't know. Personally think it was bad rule writing. You have to remember that it was the SEC that wrote the rule for the express purpose of limiting the signing of unqualified athletes. The emphasis on the LOI is more consistent with this intent.

quote:

How can they enforce a rule that doesn't officially exist?

The member universities are the SEC. They can implement the rules however they want (as long as they are more restrictive). It could just be a gentlemen's agreement.

quote:

Also, LSU accepted 24 LOIs in 2012 and three did not qualify. How were we recently able to add 27 instead of 26?

Are you sure they didn't count back 1 to 2011? Hill participated in the spring game.

There are tons of circumstantial evidence that the LOI interpretation is how it is being done in practice. I have seen zero evidence contrary to it.






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Indiana Tiger
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


quote:

an interesting situation, you'd think they could just come in based on their original LOI and not take up new slots, but that LOI is rendered null and void if they don't qualify. However, a player doesn't have to sign an LOI. This is one way schools could get around the LOI issue with EE's, as long as they have room to back-count initial qualifiers. Of course you lose the protections the LOI provides.

As MOT pointed out, EEs don't sign LOIs, but they count. It's important not look at this like a lawyer looking for loopholes.






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Lsupimp
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Member since Nov 2003
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


Bottom line-an 18 year old kid had his CHOICE of swallowing his pride, paying a semester and then joining the LSU team of his dreams or going to a great TCU program on a full ride from DAY ONE.Either way HE WINS.

When I turned 18 and started LSU, I moved out to Gardere, my evil step mother converted my childhood room to her closet, the bitch gave away the family dog, and I never went back.

Looks like Tevin wins, and more power to him.






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ProjectP2294
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


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Bottom line-an 18 year old kid had his CHOICE of swallowing his pride, paying a semester and then joining the LSU team


He also had the choice of only delaying his enrollment and not even having to pay for a semester.






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MOT
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


You are correct in that the SEC originally did it because so many players were being signed knowing they would not qualify. Some schools were signing 35 players knowing many of them had no chance and were going to juco. The new rule has eliminated that practice. That's why LSU did not accept LOIs from players like John Thomas. But I still think if it was intended to join the initial counter limit and the signee limit at the hip, it would specifically be stated that way.

quote:

The member universities are the SEC. They can implement the rules however they want (as long as they are more restrictive).

I agree completely, just pointing out that when they have previously differed or been more restrictive they have specifically stated the differences in their operating bylaws. They have not done so in this case.

quote:

Are you sure they didn't count back 1 to 2011? Hill participated in the spring game.

I'm not sure, I would have to revisit the 2011 class. I do know that was the one with the self imposed restriction due to the Hicks/NCAA investigation.

quote:

There are tons of circumstantial evidence that the LOI interpretation is how it is being done in practice. I have seen zero evidence contrary to it.

What other evidence is there? I know there is LSU's situation with this most recent class, but that alone doesn't convince me for a few different reasons. The only other thing I'm aware of is an article about a year ago inferred this interpretation based on a quote from an SEC official that most likely was in reference to another rule.






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Indiana Tiger
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


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I do know that was the one with the self imposed restriction due to the Hicks/NCAA investigation.

What you also have to consider, and I do not know, is they may have allowed them to lift the restriction for an EE because of how they handled it.

quote:

What other evidence is there?

Think I have a post in this thread that outlines some of it. I'm tied up for the next hour or so. I'll post it then, or you can look at my post history.






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ForeLSU
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re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?


quote:

As MOT pointed out, EEs don't sign LOIs, but they count. It's important not look at this like a lawyer looking for loopholes.


looking at the bylaws, they do state that the 25 limit is LOI's and financial aid offers. However, according to this clause, it does appear that any players who can count back against initial counters for the current academic year are not included in the 25 limit...

quote:

13.9.1.1 Signing Limit Exception. A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent, Conference
financial aid agreement and/or institutional offer of athletics financial aid and is included in the certifying
institution’s initial counter limits for the current academic year is not subject to the institution’s annual signing limit.
[Adopted 6/3/11; effective August 1, 2011]


LINK



This post was edited on 2/21 at 9:06 am


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