19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom - Page 8 - TigerDroppings.com

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TigersforEver
LSU Fan
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1140 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


I agree that creationism, and religion as a whole is not science. One is not objectively "better" than the other, and they should not be in competition. However, it does slightly disturb me that a biology course supporting evolution is required for public school students while religion class is not even allowed in public high schools.

It is my position that what I call "structural/functional" biology be taught: teach about organisms as they are, and simply say that origin, etc. is a personal belief.






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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4142 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

However, it does slightly disturb me that a biology course supporting evolution is required for public school students while religion class is not even allowed in public high schools.


It wouldn't be a real biology course if it did anything but support evolution. Its scientific fact that explains how life evolves and diversified to what we see today.

quote:

It is my position that what I call "structural/functional" biology be taught: teach about organisms as they are, and simply say that origin, etc. is a personal belief.


But evolution isn't a personal belief, its a scientific fact. Why should kids not have access to this fact in a science class at school?



DId i mention evolution is a scientific fact?






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Rohan2Reed
Grambling Fan
Member since Nov 2003
70109 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


There is infinitely more to the theory of evolution than just the idea that humans evolved from apes.

But hey, acknowledging that takes away the creationist's talking points.






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TigersforEver
LSU Fan
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1140 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


I realize that evolution is a complex topic. And that it says nothing about humans "coming from monkeys" but rather evolving alongside current primates. I am actually a moderate/liberal Christian who believes that the creation/evolution "controversy" is one big category mistake. I am an evolutionary creationist.

But the problem is, there are some religions, such as fundamentalist Christianity/islam/Judaism that teach a literal interpretation of scripture, and thus no evolution. This is where I base my support for voucher programs: if the government is going to provide free education, parents and students should be free to decide what belief system said education supports.






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Rohan2Reed
Grambling Fan
Member since Nov 2003
70109 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

there are some religions, such as fundamentalist Christianity/islam/Judaism that teach a literal interpretation of scripture, and thus no evolution. This is where I base my support for voucher programs: if the government is going to provide free education, parents and students should be free to decide what belief system said education supports.


So we should have a vote on it? That makes sense. I'm sure the atheists, agnostics, jews and muslims and everyone else who isn't a Christian conservative would have tons of say on what is taught in that model of decision-making.

Why even vet teachers with years of education and research experience? Just have people in the community vote on who they agree with more.






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TigersforEver
LSU Fan
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1140 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

So we should have a vote on it? That makes sense. I'm sure the atheists, agnostics, jews and muslims and everyone else who isn't a Christian conservative would have tons of say on what is taught in that model of decision-making.


I didn't say that public schools should actively teach any religion. I simply said that if the government is going to provide taxpayer-funded education that the recipients should be able to choose the nature of said education. And as far as non-Christian religions, I believe Muslim/Hindu/Jewish/anything schools should be just as eligible as Christian ones.






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Rohan2Reed
Grambling Fan
Member since Nov 2003
70109 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I didn't say that public schools should actively teach any religion. I simply said that if the government is going to provide taxpayer-funded education that the recipients should be able to choose the nature of said education.


Roads and bridges are funded by taxpayers. Should we have a say in how the roads and bridges are built? Or should we leave those decisions up to the people who are educated and trained in that field?

quote:

And as far as non-Christian religions, I believe Muslim/Hindu/Jewish/anything schools should be just as eligible as Christian ones.


Well at least you're right on that point. My point was, in a popular vote system they would never have their day in court.






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TigersforEver
LSU Fan
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1140 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Roads and bridges are funded by taxpayers. Should we have a say in how the roads and bridges are built? Or should we leave those decisions up to the people who are educated and trained in that field?


One major difference in this comparison is that everyone must, as a matter of practicality, use pretty much the same roads and bridges. Not so with schools.

I'm not proposing a majority vote at all. I'm saying that kids should be able to apply their "free" education to whatever school they choose. There can be Muslim schools, Christian schools, secular schools, regular public schools, etc.






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ddeeeffff
Florida Fan
Member since Mar 2009
114 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


I mostly agree with you...except for the last sentence.

quote:

It is my position that what I call "structural/functional" biology be taught: teach about organisms as they are, and simply say that origin, etc. is a personal belief.


Firstly, evolution has nothing to do with origin of life. Secondly, biology class is a science class for teaching the findings from the scientific method. Everything is effectively under the umbrella of "this is the best answer science has come up with".

What you call "structural/functional" biology is not science, it is just observations, a visit to the zoo, a day on animal planet. It is to biology as arithmetic is to mathematics, as alphabet is to literature, as color is to art. The juice of biology is the process that it arrives at its best answers. It is the process from a foundation based on fundamental assumptions of science (that we live in a world with repeatable experiments, that our logic is sound, that A=A, that the world in your head is the same world in my head, etc) all the way to something as abstract and ethereal as macroevolution.

To make pieces of this about personal belief is akin to believing only some Books are true. Once you can accept the basic assumptions of science or theology, the rest follows. There is no picking and choosing, as belief is no longer a factor. Note this is NOT to say you cannot question. You can doubt the methods and the logical steps leading up to a theory, but not the existence of the evidence, facts. Unless you can come up with better evidence, better methods, and better chains of logic, you will have to accept evolution as the best answer until someone smarter comes along. Similarly, you can question the interpretation of the Bible, but not the words themselves (yes translation yadda yadda). If you want to convince the world of Calvinism, you must support your interpretation through Scripture (or find another bible). Change comes from within the system.

Some more ranting.

Suppose your child is a bright student who believes in Creationism. She is in high school and by this point you would hope she has seriously contemplated her faith, asked herself what exactly she believes, and at least attempted to answer why. (If she is not capable of this at this time, then she doesn't really believe in anything yet does she?)

She takes a biology class. What could happen? She learns how science attempts to answer the questions of nature based on its set of fundamental assumptions At the end of her class, she considers whether the Earth is 4.5 billions years old as science suggests or 6000 years old as theology suggests. How does she reconcile this? She looks at the chain of logic from assumptions to 4.5 billion that science follows and looks at the pages of scripture from Genesis to 6000 that theology calculates. She looks to see where the evidence could be lacking on the former and interpretation flexible on the latter. Only when this fails does she have to question her fundamental beliefs in each. If she believed in a literal interpretation of Scripture, she will probably have to discard one of the two systems. Otherwise, she could easily hold on to both in a sensical and consistent manner for the rest of her life.







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TigersforEver
LSU Fan
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1140 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

ddeeeffff


Great post, really thoughtful and thought provoking.

One question: what's wrong with the "trip to the zoo/animal planet" approach to biology? Even if one wanted to be, say, a veterinarian, he or she would need to know every detail of the structure, behavior, function, and maladies related to certain animals. Same with a human physician. How these attributes came to be is honestly irrelevant to even the most involved fields of applied biology. Creationists can be, and most certainly are, highly successful medical professionals.






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Tiguar
South Alabama Fan
Mobile
Member since Mar 2012
6065 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


It's actually possible to reconcile literal translation and 4.5 billion old universe:

God didn't create Adam as a baby, he didn't create a young universe.

He created a 4.5 billion year old universe 6000 years ago.



This post was edited on 1/18 at 12:25 am


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Tigah in the ATL
LSU Fan
Atlanta
Member since Feb 2005
23743 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


How does a thread get to 8 pages about someone fighting idiot "science?"

Are people arguing that creationism belongs in science classes?






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TigersforEver
LSU Fan
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1140 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Tigah in the ATL


Did you take time to read the civil debate between myself and Rohan2Reed? Or dheeff's long, thoughtful post?






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Tigah in the ATL
LSU Fan
Atlanta
Member since Feb 2005
23743 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

it does slightly disturb me that a biology course supporting evolution is required for public school students
It disturbs me that you think there is some other idea than evolution. The study of biology today is the study of evolution.
quote:

and simply say that origin, etc. is a personal belief.
That's like saying that base scientific knowledge should be taught as "whatever you think is fine." That's not how science works.

Also, you have illustrated how this thread could go for 8 pages.






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TigersforEver
LSU Fan
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1140 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Tigah in the ATL


I actually detail how biology can be mastered and applied without either evolution or literal creationism. Do you not think that a physician who knows every detail about, say, the digestive system, but believes it was created by God ex nihilo would be any less effective than an equally skilled evolutionist doctor?

And it disturbs me that you have a problem with a lengthy discussion.






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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

It disturbs me that you think there is some other idea than evolution. The study of biology today is the study of evolution.


Well, you are an enemy to science. And I am in favor of evolution and oppose creationism in schools.

The kid that this thread is about sucks though.






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Tigah in the ATL
LSU Fan
Atlanta
Member since Feb 2005
23743 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Did you take time to read the civil debate between myself and Rohan2Reed?
I cannot find where you posted at all in this thread until this page.

dheef's long post is just a reaction to what seems to be acceptance to some alternate views.






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Tigah in the ATL
LSU Fan
Atlanta
Member since Feb 2005
23743 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I actually detail how biology can be mastered and applied without either evolution or literal creationism.
where?
quote:

Do you not think that a physician who knows every detail about, say, the digestive system, but believes it was created by God ex nihilo would be any less effective than an equally skilled evolutionist doctor?
A doctor isn't a scientist any more than an engineer is. Both are professionals who use primarily empirical knowledge. But you can't study molecular biology without studying evolution.
quote:

And it disturbs me that you have a problem with a lengthy discussion
Well, it seems to be centered on pissing matches on semantics, plus NC's either trolling or ignorance that the objective of the law is to promote creationism.

For those who haven't noticed, "critical thinking" is a new code word for "evolution is lies."






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Tom288
Florida Fan
Member since Apr 2009
17830 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

It's actually possible to reconcile literal translation and 4.5 billion old universe:

God didn't create Adam as a baby, he didn't create a young universe.

He created a 4.5 billion year old universe 6000 years ago.








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HeadChange
New Orleans Saints Fan
Abort gay babies
Member since May 2009
41441 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

He created a 4.5 billion year old universe 6000 years ago.

Ignoring the fact that this makes no sense, the known universe is actually 13+ billion years old, not 4.5.






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