Have we become a "theft" society? - Page 4 - TigerDroppings.com

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Blue Velvet
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?








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Ace Midnight
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Are you insinuating that rationality is linked to the advocation of theft?


No, I'm saying rationality leads to acceptance of a certain level of unavoidable taxes, that, if kept to absolute minimum, would be reasonably palatable. When people see billions and billions being spent to pay for rent and groceries for able-bodied people, research on the mating habits of endangered snails, foreign aid to countries that hate and attack us - THAT's when they balk. NOT for the firefighter's salary, teacher's retirement or concrete for the roads - Americans don't like taxes, but are willing to accept taxes to pay for a fairly short list of things. The powers-that-be have blown that so far beyond, they continue to so at their peril.



This post was edited on 12/12 at 1:38 pm


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Gmorgan4982
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

No, I'm saying rationality leads to acceptance of a certain level of unavoidable taxes, that, if kept to absolute minimum, would be reasonably palatable.
If someone is legally allowed to steal from others and it does not go against their sense of morality, they are rarely going to keep theft at a minimum.






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HempHead
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

NOT for the firefighter's salary, teacher's retirement or concrete for the roads


If government was comprised of these (and other minarchist functions), then the tax burden would certainly be light.

This does not alter the morality of taxation, nor does it make these government services more efficient or competitive.






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Blue Velvet
Colorado State Fan
Kenai, Alaska
Member since Nov 2009
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Are you insinuating that rationality is linked to the advocation of theft?
quote:

No, I'm saying rationality leads to acceptance of a certain level of unavoidable taxes
So rationality leads to acceptance of theft?






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Ace Midnight
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

If someone is legally allowed to steal from others and it does not go against their sense of morality, they are rarely going to keep theft at a minimum.


I like to pretend (and I'm probably naive) that, once upon a time, our elected officials took all that "Stewards of the people's trust" seriously. Now, particularly the Democractic party, but the political class in general, think if it as their money, to do with as they please. They look at net profits and, instead of saying, "Great. The American Dream works.", they think, "How can we get a bigger slice of that?"

So, your point is well taken that, eventually, the legal authority to steal simply overwhelmed what good intention and positive character "they" as an institution might have once held - in the before times, in the long-long ago.






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HempHead
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


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I like to pretend (and I'm probably naive) that, once upon a time, our elected officials took all that "Stewards of the people's trust" seriously.


So, for taxation to be effective and moral, we must ensure that we have benevolent stewards in office.






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Ace Midnight
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

So, for taxation to be effective and moral, we must ensure that we have benevolent stewards in office.


If any show up on the ballot, I will give them strong consideration. Until then, I have little choice but to select either the "least of evils" OR "none of the above".







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HempHead
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

If any show up on the ballot, I will give them strong consideration. Until then, I have little choice but to select either the "least of evils" OR "none of the above".


How is this sustainable or morally commendable?

To expect good and honest folks to be elected officials is like pissing in the wind.

ETA: Also, just because an elected official may well be a good 'steward' does not mean that he/they will allocate resources that align with the preferences of his constituents. The only way for that to happen is to let folks spend their money as they see fit.



This post was edited on 12/12 at 1:52 pm


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Gmorgan4982
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

To expect good and honest folks to be elected officials is like pissing in the wind.
Right; it's been shown over and over again to not happen.






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TrueTiger
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

What kind of tax can be consensual and voluntary?



I was thinking of an original group of people who voluntarily voted to implement a tax. There is a form of consent there and its possible that it could be unanimous. So, if we stop there I have a hard time calling it theft. But this hypothetical would hardly ever occur in the real world so like I said, someone is going to be violated by the majority. I can't say that taking something from someone against their will is justice because the mob says so.

Perhaps there is a way to allow the opposition to opt out of the tax with the provision that they don't get to use the infrastructure that the tax payers build. For example, if you opt out don't bother to call the police if someone is trying to kill you. You didn't pay, so they won't show up. Same thing if your house is on fire, don't call the fire department you didn't pay for. Don't drive on the road you didn't pay for either. But we know that once the non-payors see the advantages of the common infrastructure, many of them will want to use it too. And of course they can start paying and participating but the rate would have to be higher to make up for the start up cost they avoided in the first place.

So when I said that I tolerate taxes for public use infrastructure its because I see some value there that I want to utilize and do utilize, and if I paid nothing, then I would be the thief.






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HempHead
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

o when I said that I tolerate taxes for public use infrastructure its because I see some value there that I want to utilize and do utilize, and if I paid nothing, then I would be the thief.


Do you believe that only the state can provide these services?






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Ace Midnight
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Do you believe that only the state can provide these services?


That's part of the problem - many things realistically have to either be done by the state directly, have the work contracted by private companies which are paid by the state and/or be maintained by the state. Classic examples are roads, bridges. You can privatize them, to a certain degree, with turnpikes, toll booths, but, in the final analysis, there is nothing intrinsicially wrong with government operation of roads and bridges to facilitate interstate commerce.

The problem is the 600lb gorilla in the room is entitlements. There is no outsourcing of entitlements. They really shouldn't be the purview of the government. But they are, and there is no solution other than cut or eliminate them as much as possible.

There is no political will to do so, ergo this problem will continue and ultimately either bring the country down completely, or be responsible for a major, painful restructuring. The political class will delay this as long as it is delayable.



This post was edited on 12/12 at 2:36 pm


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HempHead
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Classic examples are roads, bridges. You can privatize them, to a certain degree, with turnpikes, toll booths, but, in the final analysis, there is nothing intrinsicially wrong with government operation of roads and bridges to facilitate interstate commerce.


Is there something intrinsically wrong with private ownership and operation of infrastructure?

What is particular about the services provided by a minarchist government, that they can only be done by the state?

No debate as far as non-discretionary, mandatory spending. It is the largest driver of debt and has wild effects on price structure.







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TrueTiger
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Do you believe that only the state can provide these services?


No, there real world examples like toll roads, Blackwater Security (now Academi) for your private army needs, private schools, volunteer fire departments and now SpaceX shows that many services that government has traditionally done can be done through privatization. Overcoming the "its always been that way" mentality from the statist is a giant obstacle however. Of course there is no guarantee that the groups running these operations will always perform them well, or that they won't become powerful tyrants themselves.

It seems to me that armies and navies don't translate all that well to privatization even if it is possible.






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HempHead
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

It seems to me that armies and navies don't translate all that well to privatization even if it is possible.


That's because there isn't much consumer demand for them.






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Ace Midnight
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Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Is there something intrinsically wrong with private ownership and operation of infrastructure?


No. But, the government's intent is to facilitate trade and grow the economy. Private ownership of infrastructure might include, "Hey, it's expensive to keep these roads up with all this traffic. We'll limit it to high dollar 18-wheeler traffic, and price all the compact cars out.", to maximize profit. If you want to make infrastructure a regulated utility, rather than a pure minarchist structure - maybe that would work.

Infrastructure isn't like a sandwich shop - a sandwich shop opens and charges $56 for a club on wheat, he'll have competitors on price - infrastructure not so much.







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TrueTiger
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

That's because there isn't much consumer demand for them.



True, there is not much demand for their active services. I think there is demand for their capacity. Since they take years to train and equip, you can't just flip a switch and have them available when actually needed. So, you have to pay a standby or capacity charge to keep them available, just in case.

I suppose it is the same way people approach owning a gun. They may not like the idea of having one but they want the capability there. They won't be able to ask the bad guy to stop what he is doing while they run out and buy one when it is needed.






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HempHead
Alabama Fan
Appalachia
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Private ownership of infrastructure might include, "Hey, it's expensive to keep these roads up with all this traffic. We'll limit it to high dollar 18-wheeler traffic, and price all the compact cars out.", to maximize profit.


If there is demand for roads that service compact cars, does it not follow that some individual(s) will recognize and act upon it?

quote:

he'll have competitors on price - infrastructure not so much.



Well, it is hard to imagine competition in infrastructure because we currently have a monopoly system. The origination of ownership for roads would be a monumental task to get started, but I fully believe that private ownership of roads and other utilities would better reflect consumer preferences rather than government control.






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Ace Midnight
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Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
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re: Have we become a "theft" society?


quote:

Well, it is hard to imagine competition in infrastructure because we currently have a monopoly system. The origination of ownership for roads would be a monumental task to get started, but I fully believe that private ownership of roads and other utilities would better reflect consumer preferences rather than government control.


And I am not opposed to private sector replacement of most government services, especially where, in most cases, the citizen will be served more efficiently, courteously and the costs will be completely transparent (and I'm a federal employee).







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