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Started By
Message
I found that bullet. It did not explode.
Posted on 11/29/12 at 11:43 pm
Posted on 11/29/12 at 11:43 pm
For those that haven't been around for my Ballistic Tip crusade, I've shot about a hundred deer with a 30-06 125 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip handload doing 3200 fps and have never captured one in the body of a deer. They always exit with a massive hole after doing horrific damage to the deer and generally dropping them in their tracks.
But thirty minutes before the Ole Miss game, I shot a doe under less than ideal conditions and hit her too far back at about 150 yrds. Total gut shot. And she dropped in her tracks till I shot a second time and missed right by her head which gave her enough adrenaline to make it almost a whole thirty yards before falling over dead. Had I not shot the second shot, I don't think she'd have risen from the first shot.
No vitals hit or bones. Straight up gut shot and considering the state of those guts, pretty much just blood stew with gut pieces and an astonishing amount of hydrostatic shock damage to the cavity, I assumed the bullet had done what all the people who've been exposed to other versions of the ballistic tip think applies to this one. I thought it exploded on impact with the guts. I even found a couple of pieces of jacket to confirm it to myself.
Till tonight.
I cut the bullet out of the center of a steak from the hind quarter and I'm amazed.
So here's the entrance and the bruising of the entire cavity due to the shock damage that basically turned all her guts into pieces and liquid. But it didn't exit. So everyone thought, including me that it had exploded.
And here's a couple of pics of the bullet. Which performed damn near perfectly turning the whole damn deer's torso practically into a kill shot.
I even found a piece of the green plastic tip close to it.
I rest my case.
Whatever the hell kind of plastic tip bullet you've been exposed to that blows up and never exits, ain't this one. The Winchester versions have a thinner jacket and I'm betting that's why so many people think ballistic tip equals no exit wound. This is one in a hundred for me. Possibly more than that actually. First one I've stopped, and first one I've found. The rest left holes the size of your fist spraying blood like a fire hose.
The original Nosler... doesn't explode. It's the freaking hammer of Thor or some shite.
This one saved me having to deal with the idea of losing a deer that I wounded, which a heavier bullet going slower would have definitely done.
In short....
But thirty minutes before the Ole Miss game, I shot a doe under less than ideal conditions and hit her too far back at about 150 yrds. Total gut shot. And she dropped in her tracks till I shot a second time and missed right by her head which gave her enough adrenaline to make it almost a whole thirty yards before falling over dead. Had I not shot the second shot, I don't think she'd have risen from the first shot.
No vitals hit or bones. Straight up gut shot and considering the state of those guts, pretty much just blood stew with gut pieces and an astonishing amount of hydrostatic shock damage to the cavity, I assumed the bullet had done what all the people who've been exposed to other versions of the ballistic tip think applies to this one. I thought it exploded on impact with the guts. I even found a couple of pieces of jacket to confirm it to myself.
Till tonight.
I cut the bullet out of the center of a steak from the hind quarter and I'm amazed.
So here's the entrance and the bruising of the entire cavity due to the shock damage that basically turned all her guts into pieces and liquid. But it didn't exit. So everyone thought, including me that it had exploded.
And here's a couple of pics of the bullet. Which performed damn near perfectly turning the whole damn deer's torso practically into a kill shot.
I even found a piece of the green plastic tip close to it.
I rest my case.
Whatever the hell kind of plastic tip bullet you've been exposed to that blows up and never exits, ain't this one. The Winchester versions have a thinner jacket and I'm betting that's why so many people think ballistic tip equals no exit wound. This is one in a hundred for me. Possibly more than that actually. First one I've stopped, and first one I've found. The rest left holes the size of your fist spraying blood like a fire hose.
The original Nosler... doesn't explode. It's the freaking hammer of Thor or some shite.
This one saved me having to deal with the idea of losing a deer that I wounded, which a heavier bullet going slower would have definitely done.
In short....
4
Posted on 11/29/12 at 11:53 pm to faxis
Good work man!
Keep shootin' straight!
Keep shootin' straight!
Posted on 11/29/12 at 11:56 pm to bapple
LOL not sure if sarcastic.
It was a horrible shot.
It was a horrible shot.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:05 am to faxis
The piece of jacket I found was about a half inch under the skin. It almost exited. The bullet itself was about two inches from exiting after traveling about a foot.
While you can't buy this round, since it's a hand load, I still think it's a superior choice for whitetails and somebody should be selling it. Of course I've thought that since the early 80's and it still hasn't happened. Only 125's I see in '06 are reduced recoil rounds and that's just the antithesis of what you're wanting.
This is the sweet spot.
While you can't buy this round, since it's a hand load, I still think it's a superior choice for whitetails and somebody should be selling it. Of course I've thought that since the early 80's and it still hasn't happened. Only 125's I see in '06 are reduced recoil rounds and that's just the antithesis of what you're wanting.
This is the sweet spot.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:24 am to faxis
quote:
LOL not sure if sarcastic.
A little
But I can definitely see the low recoil from the smaller round. Elementary physics at its finest - every action has an equal and opposite one. So a heavier bullet with an identical charge weight (powder charge) will recoil heavier.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:34 am to bapple
In my mind it comes down to the target.
You've got just a few inches on a correct shot to deliver maximum damage to put the animal down. The velocity of the projectile in proportion to the weight of it and the resistance it encounters will determine whether it's delivering damage soon enough and completely enough.
Higher velocity and lower weight means the bullet expands faster and starts to slow down much more violently so POTENTIAL energy is delivered to the target instead of exiting the other side.
Now there's a lot of shite involved in this equation. We tried 110 gr bullets in the 06 and they didn't have the ballistic coefficient to not tumble. But the ballistic tip 125's... they work damn near perfectly for the deer in the south. I've even used them on huge pigs and they will still get a foot of penetration and send an astonishing shock wave through them.
I guess I'm on a crusade because I've trailed too many friends deer that were shot with more conventional heavier, slower rounds that just knocked holes in them because the target wasn't resistant enough to truly get the potential energy out of that round. Whereas if I'd hit them with this round, they would have been dead on the spot. Or very damn close.
People listen to pow pow a bit much when pow pow is working with hundred year old ideas and not physics.
You've got just a few inches on a correct shot to deliver maximum damage to put the animal down. The velocity of the projectile in proportion to the weight of it and the resistance it encounters will determine whether it's delivering damage soon enough and completely enough.
Higher velocity and lower weight means the bullet expands faster and starts to slow down much more violently so POTENTIAL energy is delivered to the target instead of exiting the other side.
Now there's a lot of shite involved in this equation. We tried 110 gr bullets in the 06 and they didn't have the ballistic coefficient to not tumble. But the ballistic tip 125's... they work damn near perfectly for the deer in the south. I've even used them on huge pigs and they will still get a foot of penetration and send an astonishing shock wave through them.
I guess I'm on a crusade because I've trailed too many friends deer that were shot with more conventional heavier, slower rounds that just knocked holes in them because the target wasn't resistant enough to truly get the potential energy out of that round. Whereas if I'd hit them with this round, they would have been dead on the spot. Or very damn close.
People listen to pow pow a bit much when pow pow is working with hundred year old ideas and not physics.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:39 am to faxis
I'm gonna be a nerd dick here.
The bullet has kinetic energy. Potential energy has nothing to do with anything here. You get potential energy from gravity and batteries and shite.
The bullet has x amount of kinetic energy on impact, an it transfers that energy to the target through deceleration.
The bullet has kinetic energy. Potential energy has nothing to do with anything here. You get potential energy from gravity and batteries and shite.
The bullet has x amount of kinetic energy on impact, an it transfers that energy to the target through deceleration.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:45 am to faxis
quote:
I guess I'm on a crusade because I've trailed too many friends deer that were shot with more conventional heavier, slower rounds that just knocked holes in them because the target wasn't resistant enough to truly get the potential energy out of that round. Whereas if I'd hit them with this round, they would have been dead on the spot. Or very damn close.
This is why when I wanted to do my own hunting handloads my dad suggested 165gr rounds in 30-06 with a high velocity. You get good energy transfer with good penetration and expansion. My brother dropped an 8 point right on his arse this month using a 165gr Scirocco II and 61.2gr of Hornady Superformance powder. It's leaving the barrel somewhere between 2600-2700fps and does a good job of exiting. I also like the fact that plastic-tipped bullets don't deform when being chambered.
I also forgot to mention I'm loading these rounds in old 30-06 military brass. These cases are stamped from the 60s or 70s, I forget exactly which year. But I think it's badass when you can use a case that's near 40-50 years old and still rock the house with it.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:45 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
The potential, as in how much energy the bullet has at any given moment in flight, is what it is.
How that potential gets used depends on the target.
If it's a moose, I'm going to use every drop of it because that bullet is not coming out the other side of an animal that large.
We're talking the same thing but you're nerding out on me.
Energy not used in the target translates to distance of the projectile from the target after exit.
The key is getting as much of the POTENTIAL ENERGY that thing can deliver INTO THE TARGET without wasting it. A heavy bullet that just flies through the target without slowing down seriously wastes it.
Which is not to say you can't take a heavy bullet and crank up velocity to make it stop violently in a whitetail and make this thing look miniscule in comparison which when you think about it is fricking terrifying. But you're getting into the belted magnums for that.
Period.
How that potential gets used depends on the target.
If it's a moose, I'm going to use every drop of it because that bullet is not coming out the other side of an animal that large.
We're talking the same thing but you're nerding out on me.
Energy not used in the target translates to distance of the projectile from the target after exit.
The key is getting as much of the POTENTIAL ENERGY that thing can deliver INTO THE TARGET without wasting it. A heavy bullet that just flies through the target without slowing down seriously wastes it.
Which is not to say you can't take a heavy bullet and crank up velocity to make it stop violently in a whitetail and make this thing look miniscule in comparison which when you think about it is fricking terrifying. But you're getting into the belted magnums for that.
Period.
This post was edited on 11/30/12 at 12:48 am
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:52 am to bapple
Bapple that's a badass round. You get into that kind of velocity with a round that heavy and it's going to do nasty things to something the size of a whitetail if it's decelerating fast enough which I suspect that one will.
Got no problem with that. In fact that round will be more accurate than mine simply because of the ballistic coefficient. But I think it's leaving a lot on the table after exit because whitetail just doesn't have the stuff to slow it down enough.
But for an elk, or even a big muley, or even a whitetail at long range that round would be horrific.
Got no problem with that. In fact that round will be more accurate than mine simply because of the ballistic coefficient. But I think it's leaving a lot on the table after exit because whitetail just doesn't have the stuff to slow it down enough.
But for an elk, or even a big muley, or even a whitetail at long range that round would be horrific.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:53 am to faxis
EDIT #2: I didn't realize your whole shpeel was intended for downshift. His response was pretty damn small compared to yours so I didn't notice it.
My B!
Can't help it... Reloading and shooting is my shite
Absolutely and for shooting whitetail you want to find a good balance so your bullet will do its job in the chest cavity and then exit for a blood trail.
You're saying you want that potential energy translated to kinetic energy. I'm not advocating using FMJ rounds on deer. I understand a heavy bullet needs enough velocity to begin expansion but that all comes down to bullet design. The Scirocco is designed for controlled expansion so it will exit. The Barnes TTSX is designed for controlled expansion to exit. Many deer rounds do this. I'm not arguing against your statements here.
I think it's surprising that you use 125gr rounds cranked up to 3000+ with success. But if the bullet holds together and you get that crispy exit with a devastating wound, you've found the formula.
This round isn't designed to do that. If I wanted to "drop a grenade" in the deer's chest cavity I would run Hornady Vmax and call it a day. Any fragmenting varmint round will exhibit the same characteristics - low penetration and maximum energy transfer.
EDIT: In regards to your new post, I say this is why my dad likes the 165gr in 30-06. He thinks rounds near the 180-200gr are a bit too much for deer and more suited for big game like elk. That's not to say he doesn't like 150gr rounds and such, but this is a very stable and accurate round. And you're right - it has a great BC.
My B!
quote:
We're talking the same thing but you're nerding out on me.
Can't help it... Reloading and shooting is my shite
quote:
Energy not used in the target translates to distance of the projectile from the target after exit.
Absolutely and for shooting whitetail you want to find a good balance so your bullet will do its job in the chest cavity and then exit for a blood trail.
quote:
The key is getting as much of the POTENTIAL ENERGY that thing can deliver INTO THE TARGET without wasting it. A heavy bullet that just flies through the target without slowing down seriously wastes it.
You're saying you want that potential energy translated to kinetic energy. I'm not advocating using FMJ rounds on deer. I understand a heavy bullet needs enough velocity to begin expansion but that all comes down to bullet design. The Scirocco is designed for controlled expansion so it will exit. The Barnes TTSX is designed for controlled expansion to exit. Many deer rounds do this. I'm not arguing against your statements here.
I think it's surprising that you use 125gr rounds cranked up to 3000+ with success. But if the bullet holds together and you get that crispy exit with a devastating wound, you've found the formula.
quote:
Which is not to say you can't take a heavy bullet and crank up velocity to make it stop violently in a whitetail and make this thing look miniscule in comparison which when you think about it is fricking terrifying.
This round isn't designed to do that. If I wanted to "drop a grenade" in the deer's chest cavity I would run Hornady Vmax and call it a day. Any fragmenting varmint round will exhibit the same characteristics - low penetration and maximum energy transfer.
EDIT: In regards to your new post, I say this is why my dad likes the 165gr in 30-06. He thinks rounds near the 180-200gr are a bit too much for deer and more suited for big game like elk. That's not to say he doesn't like 150gr rounds and such, but this is a very stable and accurate round. And you're right - it has a great BC.
This post was edited on 11/30/12 at 1:15 am
Posted on 11/30/12 at 12:58 am to bapple
Yeah I think we're actually on the same page. I'm just a little more radical in my bullet selection because I've never believed penetration was a big factor in little ole whitetails.
I'm just showing you what this does because I've been getting pounded by people who think I'm speaking heresy.
I'm just showing you what this does because I've been getting pounded by people who think I'm speaking heresy.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 1:03 am to faxis
quote:
Yeah I think we're actually on the same page. I'm just a little more radical in my bullet selection because I've never believed penetration was a big factor in little ole whitetails. I'm just showing you what this does because I've been getting pounded by people who think I'm speaking heresy.
EDIT: I think what surprises me so much is how well that 125gr round held up. That's one tough bullet for how fast it hit that deer! It's got an extremely thick jacket. Your picture almost makes it look all-copper.
We're having a pretty intense conversation in here. I doubt many deer hunters care this much about the physics of it.
But once you actually start studying ballistics and stuff, it gets extremely interesting. This is why I love BrassFetcher's channel on YouTube. It's always very informative with real and visible data.
https://www.youtube.com/user/BrassFetcher/videos?view=0
This post was edited on 11/30/12 at 1:08 am
Posted on 11/30/12 at 1:11 am to bapple
Ohhhh very cool. I'm going to have to check that out tomorrow.
People should be more concerned with what's actually happening with the physics of the equation. Most have no concept of it and think that if it blows a hole through them then frick YEAH!
Mine turns a kill zone the size of a basketball into one the size of a duffle bag. And it ain't nothing but physics. If more people understood that, there'd be a whole lot fewer deer lost.
Drives me nuts.
People should be more concerned with what's actually happening with the physics of the equation. Most have no concept of it and think that if it blows a hole through them then frick YEAH!
Mine turns a kill zone the size of a basketball into one the size of a duffle bag. And it ain't nothing but physics. If more people understood that, there'd be a whole lot fewer deer lost.
Drives me nuts.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 1:12 am to faxis
quote:
faxis
BOOM
To everything we said in this whole goddamn thing
Posted on 11/30/12 at 1:14 am to bapple
We're pretty badass...
/glares at the board
I'm out. Gotta get up in the morning.
/glares at the board
I'm out. Gotta get up in the morning.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 6:19 am to faxis
quote:
The original Nosler... doesn't explode. It's the freaking hammer of Thor or some shite.
The only one to use. I load my .270 with the 140gr and push it to around 2700 fps.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 6:20 am to faxis
Posted on 11/30/12 at 7:22 am to faxis
Man you're gonna make me go all Big Bang theory on you with your terminology
Did you weigh that bullet? I'm curious.
Did you weigh that bullet? I'm curious.
Posted on 11/30/12 at 7:25 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
Did you weigh that bullet? I'm curious.
<-----also curious.
I want to reload...
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