Why is it ok to steal media? - Page 7 - TigerDroppings.com

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CAD703X
Toledo Fan
Liberty Island
Member since Jul 2008
26617 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


PS and while i'm on the topic, do you agree its ok for apple to embed software in their phones to turn OFF YOUR CAMERA AND VIDEO RECORDING CAPABILITIES based on your GPS location and time?

so not only can you not record the rolling stones in concert on a shitty phone camera, but you can't even take pictures of your friends at the show.

also youtube "found" a copyrighted recording in my son's video (radio was playing in the background) and forced him to take it down by threatening to remove his account.

what are you thoughts on that baloo? are those guys playing fair? they are the ones with the lobbyists.



This post was edited on 11/27 at 4:36 pm


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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
21475 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


I also think there's an issue here:

Creating value usually involves leveraging something: Time, Physical Objects, etc.

But music, in essence, is a simple short experience. It's often just background to something else. Now anything that you may think, creating multimedia live shows, takes more time, money, of you and your own fans. But that's not necessarily how people already do or want to experience the product. Basically, the most profitable way to create revenue is not to change the product value, or the dedication the product takes.



Time to get philosophical.

<Puts on Greek forum robes>



This post was edited on 11/27 at 4:43 pm


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H-Town Tiger
Toledo Fan
Member since Nov 2003
42540 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

You are just having a serious problem accepting the truth of changing markets.


from past discussions, you seem to have a problem accepting that multiple business models can be sucessful and that maybe bundling in some cases keeps prices low, a lot lower than they would be if we were charged the same price for everything individually.


quote:

I envision a world where people will still create great music without as much profit motive. Your whole argument seems to be stuck on the profit motive, and I don't even think that is what generates the best art, but maybe that's another thread


That srikes me as both terribly naive and extremely arrogant. What you consider good art, may not be the same as what me or Baloo consider good art. You may get some good art without profits, but not very much of it.






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Tiger1242
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2011
21656 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

Why is it ok to steal media?

Bc frick you I don't have a DVR






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

Time to get philosophical.

<Puts on Greek forum robes>


Or maybe the past 70-80 years are an anomaly and we as a society have overvalued music, probably due to some form of marketing or other propagandizing.

And maybe, due to technology and market forces, we're going to see a return to a place where music is valued appropriately and where people can make a decent living off of it, but won't necessarily be living high on the hog.



Truth of the matter, Baloo, is that maybe your indie heroes aren't worth that much.






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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
21475 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

Or maybe the past 70-80 years are an anomaly and we as a society have overvalued music, probably due to some form of marketing or other propagandizing.

And maybe, due to technology and market forces, we're going to see a return to a place where music is valued appropriately and where people can make a decent living off of it, but won't necessarily be living high on the hog.



Truth of the matter, Baloo, is that maybe your indie heroes aren't worth that much.


If our society doesn't value music, sad we are.






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

If our society doesn't value music, sad we are.


I didn't argue that we don't value music, just that perhaps we have overvalued it for the past 70-80 years.






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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
21475 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

I didn't argue that we don't value music, just that perhaps we have overvalued it for the past 70-80 years.


A hard point to argue for sure.

But I would argue that we also don't live in a society that can support the traveling bard well. I can see Baloo's points about the difficulty for the artist. He has to make a living somehow or we won't have art.

Are we going to return to a time when the only music you here is in a tavern (read: bar or club)? That would suck.






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CAD703X
Toledo Fan
Liberty Island
Member since Jul 2008
26617 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

I didn't argue that we don't value music, just that perhaps we have overvalued it for the past 70-80 years.



A hard point to argue for sure.


good thing we dont overvalue people who run up and down a grass field for our amusement.






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Tiger1242
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2011
21656 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

good thing we dont overvalue people who run up and down a grass field for our amusement.


Because that's what this is about






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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
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re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

good thing we dont overvalue people who run up and down a grass field for our amusement.



Oh the imbalance in athletics is far more apparent for sure.






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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
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re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

when i got mad, the people in charge of the play told me in order to put the play on they had to agree to the copyright owner's demands to ban recordings. the fear is that the COPYRIGHTED MUSIC would end up on youtube.

But that's how you defend a copyright. If they don't do that, they lose copyright protections. I think it's ridiculous as well, and I could write pages on why I think IP law subverts its actual purpose, but that is the law. It's not the RIAA's fault that the law has developed this way. They aren't the real power players who wrote the copyright law. That would be Disney.

But if the person who owns the material says, "you can perform it but not record it", then that's their right. Then they can enforce it. They own the copyright. But I agree it's stupid, but that is the law as it exists.






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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
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re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

o not only can you not record the rolling stones in concert on a shitty phone camera, but you can't even take pictures of your friends at the show.

I do support anything that makes it impossible for people to record shows with their cellphones. Not for copyright reasons, but because those people are douchebags with no concern for the rest of the audience. Put your phone down. I don't want to watch the show through your tiny screen.

I'd make it a criminal offense to take out your cameraphone during a show with a penalty of a severe public beating.

sorry, major pet peeve.






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H-Town Tiger
Toledo Fan
Member since Nov 2003
42540 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


On this note, I worked for a couple of summers at a concert venue in Houston for fun. This used to drive me nuts. People would want to come down front to "just take one picture", I'd try and explain that we can have 10,000 people come down front for "just one picture". Watch the fricking show and look at pictures on the internet.




This post was edited on 11/27 at 5:43 pm


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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
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re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

And maybe, due to technology and market forces, we're going to see a return to a place where music is valued appropriately and where people can make a decent living off of it, but won't necessarily be living high on the hog.

but they can't make a living off of it. That's the point. Their product is getting used essentially for free.

LINK /

quote:

Consider Pandora and Spotify, the streaming music services that are becoming ever more integrated into our daily listening habits. My BMI royalty check arrived recently, reporting songwriting earnings from the first quarter of 2012, and I was glad to see that our music is being listened to via these services. Galaxie 500's "Tugboat", for example, was played 7,800 times on Pandora that quarter, for which its three songwriters were paid a collective total of 21 cents, or seven cents each. Spotify pays better: For the 5,960 times "Tugboat" was played there, Galaxie 500's songwriters went collectively into triple digits: $1.05 (35 cents each).

To put this into perspective: Since we own our own recordings, by my calculation it would take songwriting royalties for roughly 312,000 plays on Pandora to earn us the profit of one-- one-- LP sale. (On Spotify, one LP is equivalent to 47,680 plays.)

Or to put it in historical perspective: The "Tugboat" 7" single, Galaxie 500's very first release, cost us $980.22 for 1,000 copies-- including shipping! (Naomi kept the receipts)-- or 98 cents each. I no longer remember what we sold them for, but obviously it was easy to turn at least a couple bucks' profit on each. Which means we earned more from every one of those 7"s we sold than from the song's recent 13,760 plays on Pandora and Spotify. Here's yet another way to look at it: Pressing 1,000 singles in 1988 gave us the earning potential of more than 13 million streams in 2012. (bolding is mine)


That is simply unsustainable. As more artists go public with their finances, more artists will start conjuring ways to deny their rights to those services and come up with alternate means. No one is talking about Lady Gaga making millions of dollars here. this is entirely about "middle class" acts or indie artists. I don't have anything invested in whether AC/DC gets more rich. This is entirely about people being able to make "a decent living".

The current system essentially robs artists blind. they should completely opt out. And I wouldn't like that to happen.

Hey, if you don't want content, that's fine. But if you do want content, eventually you should have to pay for it.

Oh, and wiki, act like a child, and I'll treat you like a child. Act like an adult, I will do the same. But responses like "waaaaaaaaaaaaah" without any substance and posts that are nothing but personal attacks without any content are beneath me. I'd like to think they are beneath you too, but maybe your horse is lower to the ground.



This post was edited on 11/27 at 5:44 pm


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H-Town Tiger
Toledo Fan
Member since Nov 2003
42540 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

where people can make a decent living off of it, but won't necessarily be living high on the hog.


What's wrong with living high on the hog? No one forces any body to buy an AC/DC CD or go to their concerts. Unless they are getting money directly from the government, what's the problem with them getting rich? If you find their prices to high, then simply don't buy their stuff.






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H-Town Tiger
Toledo Fan
Member since Nov 2003
42540 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

But that's how you defend a copyright. If they don't do that, they lose copyright protections. I think it's ridiculous as well, and I could write pages on why I think IP law subverts its actual purpose, but that is the law


Clearly the spirit of copyright law has been perverted The worst imo is the Men at Work case in Austrailia) but shouldn't there be a happy medium somewhere? If an artist doesn't want their song used in a commercial, shouldn't they have some say so?






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

Oh, and wiki, act like a child, and I'll treat you like a child. Act like an adult, I will do the same. But responses like "waaaaaaaaaaaaah" without any substance and posts that are nothing but personal attacks without any content are beneath me. I'd like to think they are beneath you too, but maybe your horse is lower to the ground.


Baloo, whine like a child, and I'll point it out.

I know you are an intelligent guy, but you seem to be stuck in a frame of mind that just isn't reasonable. Physical media? Are you serious?


And I'm not arguing these points because I dislike artists. Like you, I love music and want more stuff that I like to be produced. But I also understand that the market has changed. All I'm saying is that the artists should adapt with it.

And maybe the dreams of being the next U2, or even the next, say, Pavement are unrealistic.

Maybe the dreams of wealth and fame are unrealistic.



We are entering an age where the cost of quality content creation are extremely low, which means there will be an immense increase in supply, which means that costs have to drop.

But I have faith in both the market and in the human desire to create art.







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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

What's wrong with living high on the hog? No one forces any body to buy an AC/DC CD or go to their concerts. Unless they are getting money directly from the government, what's the problem with them getting rich? If you find their prices to high, then simply don't buy their stuff.


Nothing is wrong with that at all.

I'm just arguing that it's probably unrealistic going into the future.

There's this great comic that I saw that illustrates my point quite well (pay attention to the "Profitability", "Competition", and "Social Impact" sections):






This post was edited on 11/27 at 6:10 pm


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H-Town Tiger
Toledo Fan
Member since Nov 2003
42540 posts

re: Why is it ok to steal media?


quote:

just that perhaps we have overvalued it for the past 70-80 years.


what does that mean? Something is valued at what people are willing to pay for it. that technology makes it possible for people to get it without paying for it, doesn't mean they don't value it, it means they are short sighted.

quote:

good thing we dont overvalue people who run up and down a grass field for our amusement.


who is this "we"? Free people choose to spend time watching sports. Smart business men have found a way to make a lot of money putting on those games. It's not over valued at all. I could argue that for the amount of pleasure it brings people for what they actually pay, it's undervalued.






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