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Started By
Message
re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 6/26/13 at 10:11 am to OaklandFire
Posted on 6/26/13 at 10:11 am to OaklandFire
Part 3:
From LINK
Jormungandr -- the World Serpent -- is represented by Daenerys Targaryen, who is obviously linked to dragons/serpents, and is in exile, forced to wander the world (the TV show also makes note of how many different languages she speaks as well). Jormungandr is supposedly so massive, he can circle the world and swallow his tail, which is represented by Quaithe's prophecy to Daenerys -- "to go West, you must go East, etc". Another aspect of Jormungandr's character can be seen in Daenerys' relationship to Robert Baratheon, i.e. the Storm Lord with the war hammer -- Thor. In Norse mythology, Jormungandr & Thor are archenemies, slated to kill one another at Ragnarök, and in A Song of Ice & Fire, Daenerys & Robert Baratheon are archenemies (I happen to think Dany will meet her demise at Robert's ancestral castle, Storm's End -- i.e. Stormborn dies at Storm's End -- but that's for a different post). Dany's family was murdered and her throne usurped by Baratheon, and the enmity even followed her across the sea, as Robert tried to have her assassinated, contrary to honorable Ned's advice. What's more is Jormungandr is not just a serpent, but a sea serpent. Dany's relationship to the sea is represented by her need for ships, and future marriage to Victarion Greyjoy. But it is Victarion's Red Priest, Moqorro, who will bring Daenerys, and her dragons, to Bloodraven's side.
Which brings me to Loki's third child -- Hel, the Queen of the Dead. Hel rules over the dead in an icy underworld called Niflheim (reserved for those unfortunate souls who didn't get into Valhalla). She wears a face that is both half-beautiful, and half-dead, and in her role as Sinmara, she's the consort of Surtr, the fire giant.
Surtr, whose name means "the Black", lives at the Bifrost Bridge -- a bridge separating the world of giants from the world of the gods -- and wields a fiery sword, which he will use to set the world ablaze during Ragnarök. It is foretold that Surtr will break the Bifrost Bridge and lead the Sons of Muspell into the realm of the gods to do battle. The Sons of Muspell are fire giants who live beyond the Bifrost Bridge.
Hel & Surtr are represented by Melisandre & Jon Snow. Melisandre currently resides in an ice world, at the Wall (i.e. the Bifrost Bridge), and wears a glamor to hide the fact that she is either extremely old, or already dead (i.e. two faces). She is also an enemy of the Seven, and obsessed with death and sacrifice, constantly searching for king's blood to feed to her fires. And, up until this point, she has provided Stannis with his fiery sword.
Similarly, Jon Snow has "taken the Black" and lives at the Wall, which separates the realm of the Others from the realm of men. And, even though he too lives in an ice world, his relationship to fire is symbolized by Ygritte, who was "kissed by fire".
This probably means that Melisandre will raise Jon Snow from the dead, similar to the way Thoros resurrects Beric Dondarrion -- and Beric, in turn, raises Catelyn -- and convert him to the Lord of Light. She will then become his "wife", much the same as she was Stannis', and Jon will then assume his role as the Night's King (the Son of Craster Jon & Melisandre are holding will draw the White Walkers to them). And in that role, he will knock down the Wall and lead the "Sons of Muspell" (i.e. the Sons of Craster -- the Others -- White Walkers) into the realm to do battle with mankind (i.e. those who worship the Seven -- which is an allusion to Norse numerology -- although it should be noted, the Norse held the numbers three and nine holy, rather than seven. But it's a subtle difference).
We already know that Melisandre feels more powerful when she is at the Wall (closer to Bloodraven), and Bloodraven & Bran have already appeared to her in her fires (the exact quote from A Dance With Dragons is, "A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled" -- Ch. 31. I'm assuming that was the first time Bloodraven tried to contact her directly. But it seems likely he probably communes with the High Priest of R'hllor in a similar fashion). And now, she, and her counterpart, Moqorro, are in perfect position to wrest control of both the forces of Ice & Fire in the name of Bloodraven (i.e. the Lord of Light -- who is a sorcerer -- or rather, the "Last Greenseer". I'm assuming the title was passed down to successive generations of greenseers, and is somehow connected to the Asshai'i legend of Azor Ahai -- which they shouldn't even know, being that Azor Ahai was from Westeros, where the Long Night was fought, far from Asshai. I imagine "R'hllor" first started appearing to them in their fires around the same time the First Men started worshipping the Children and their "Old Gods". Or, at least, that's my best guess, at the moment. Because, I'm pretty sure Azor Ahai is a ruse -- at least in the context that the Asshai'i speak of him. Because, if the Children & Humans really fought the Others together, why did the Children end up on the wrong side of the Wall, with the Others?). Also a subtle clue -- in A Dance With Dragons we meet Benerro, the High Priest of R'hllor, whose skin is milk white (just like Bloodraven's -- perhaps he's trying to emulate his "god"?). He delivers a sermon in Volantis that Tyrion happens upon, and rails against Danaerys' enemies, who he singles out as those who "pray to false gods in temples of deceit" (i.e. those who worship the Seven in Westeros/Asgard -- human gods for humankind, rather than sorcerers and necromancers who grant their followers magical powers).
The role of the Red Priests in the upcoming battle is foretold in another prelude to Ragnarök -- the Three Roosters. It is said that three roosters will sound when Ragnarök begins -- a Crimson Rooster, a Golden Rooster (which will raise heroes from the dead) and a Red Rooster (which will crow at the gates of Hel).
From LINK
Jormungandr -- the World Serpent -- is represented by Daenerys Targaryen, who is obviously linked to dragons/serpents, and is in exile, forced to wander the world (the TV show also makes note of how many different languages she speaks as well). Jormungandr is supposedly so massive, he can circle the world and swallow his tail, which is represented by Quaithe's prophecy to Daenerys -- "to go West, you must go East, etc". Another aspect of Jormungandr's character can be seen in Daenerys' relationship to Robert Baratheon, i.e. the Storm Lord with the war hammer -- Thor. In Norse mythology, Jormungandr & Thor are archenemies, slated to kill one another at Ragnarök, and in A Song of Ice & Fire, Daenerys & Robert Baratheon are archenemies (I happen to think Dany will meet her demise at Robert's ancestral castle, Storm's End -- i.e. Stormborn dies at Storm's End -- but that's for a different post). Dany's family was murdered and her throne usurped by Baratheon, and the enmity even followed her across the sea, as Robert tried to have her assassinated, contrary to honorable Ned's advice. What's more is Jormungandr is not just a serpent, but a sea serpent. Dany's relationship to the sea is represented by her need for ships, and future marriage to Victarion Greyjoy. But it is Victarion's Red Priest, Moqorro, who will bring Daenerys, and her dragons, to Bloodraven's side.
Which brings me to Loki's third child -- Hel, the Queen of the Dead. Hel rules over the dead in an icy underworld called Niflheim (reserved for those unfortunate souls who didn't get into Valhalla). She wears a face that is both half-beautiful, and half-dead, and in her role as Sinmara, she's the consort of Surtr, the fire giant.
Surtr, whose name means "the Black", lives at the Bifrost Bridge -- a bridge separating the world of giants from the world of the gods -- and wields a fiery sword, which he will use to set the world ablaze during Ragnarök. It is foretold that Surtr will break the Bifrost Bridge and lead the Sons of Muspell into the realm of the gods to do battle. The Sons of Muspell are fire giants who live beyond the Bifrost Bridge.
Hel & Surtr are represented by Melisandre & Jon Snow. Melisandre currently resides in an ice world, at the Wall (i.e. the Bifrost Bridge), and wears a glamor to hide the fact that she is either extremely old, or already dead (i.e. two faces). She is also an enemy of the Seven, and obsessed with death and sacrifice, constantly searching for king's blood to feed to her fires. And, up until this point, she has provided Stannis with his fiery sword.
Similarly, Jon Snow has "taken the Black" and lives at the Wall, which separates the realm of the Others from the realm of men. And, even though he too lives in an ice world, his relationship to fire is symbolized by Ygritte, who was "kissed by fire".
This probably means that Melisandre will raise Jon Snow from the dead, similar to the way Thoros resurrects Beric Dondarrion -- and Beric, in turn, raises Catelyn -- and convert him to the Lord of Light. She will then become his "wife", much the same as she was Stannis', and Jon will then assume his role as the Night's King (the Son of Craster Jon & Melisandre are holding will draw the White Walkers to them). And in that role, he will knock down the Wall and lead the "Sons of Muspell" (i.e. the Sons of Craster -- the Others -- White Walkers) into the realm to do battle with mankind (i.e. those who worship the Seven -- which is an allusion to Norse numerology -- although it should be noted, the Norse held the numbers three and nine holy, rather than seven. But it's a subtle difference).
We already know that Melisandre feels more powerful when she is at the Wall (closer to Bloodraven), and Bloodraven & Bran have already appeared to her in her fires (the exact quote from A Dance With Dragons is, "A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled" -- Ch. 31. I'm assuming that was the first time Bloodraven tried to contact her directly. But it seems likely he probably communes with the High Priest of R'hllor in a similar fashion). And now, she, and her counterpart, Moqorro, are in perfect position to wrest control of both the forces of Ice & Fire in the name of Bloodraven (i.e. the Lord of Light -- who is a sorcerer -- or rather, the "Last Greenseer". I'm assuming the title was passed down to successive generations of greenseers, and is somehow connected to the Asshai'i legend of Azor Ahai -- which they shouldn't even know, being that Azor Ahai was from Westeros, where the Long Night was fought, far from Asshai. I imagine "R'hllor" first started appearing to them in their fires around the same time the First Men started worshipping the Children and their "Old Gods". Or, at least, that's my best guess, at the moment. Because, I'm pretty sure Azor Ahai is a ruse -- at least in the context that the Asshai'i speak of him. Because, if the Children & Humans really fought the Others together, why did the Children end up on the wrong side of the Wall, with the Others?). Also a subtle clue -- in A Dance With Dragons we meet Benerro, the High Priest of R'hllor, whose skin is milk white (just like Bloodraven's -- perhaps he's trying to emulate his "god"?). He delivers a sermon in Volantis that Tyrion happens upon, and rails against Danaerys' enemies, who he singles out as those who "pray to false gods in temples of deceit" (i.e. those who worship the Seven in Westeros/Asgard -- human gods for humankind, rather than sorcerers and necromancers who grant their followers magical powers).
The role of the Red Priests in the upcoming battle is foretold in another prelude to Ragnarök -- the Three Roosters. It is said that three roosters will sound when Ragnarök begins -- a Crimson Rooster, a Golden Rooster (which will raise heroes from the dead) and a Red Rooster (which will crow at the gates of Hel).
This post was edited on 6/26/13 at 10:16 am
1
Posted on 6/26/13 at 10:11 am to OaklandFire
Part 4:
From LINK
In A Song of Ice and Fire, these roosters are symbolized by the 3 armies that remain in control at the end of the War of the Five Kings. The Crimson Rooster is symbolized by the Lannister army, which is in control of Westeros. The Golden Rooster (which raises heroes from the dead) is symbolized by the Golden Company, which is led by Aegon Targaryen & Jon Connington (i.e. heroes from the dead), and is contesting the Lannister army for power. And lastly, the Red Rooster that crows at the gates of Hel is symbolized by the Red Priests, who are working to control the forces of Ice & Fire (i.e. Jon Snow & his White Walkers by way of Melisandre, and Daenerys Targaryen & her dragons by way of Moqorro, respectively).
Also of interest, the first person to hear these roosters -- the first person to know that Ragnarök has begun -- is a herdsman and harpist named Eggther who is a "ward of giants". He is sitting on a mound, playing his harp when the roosters crow. He is represented by Mance Rayder -- a musician-king who rules over giants and attempts to herd them into the Realm after he sees the first signs of the coming conflagration.
Other Gods & Monsters Represented:
Odin
-Although Odin has many roles and epithets, one of them is the Mad God -- as he is associated with fits of madness & rage -- and is usually depicted as an old man with a long white beard, and shaggy white hair. In the earliest incarnations of Norse mythology, Odin wasn't even worshipped as a god. Tyr is equivalent to Indo-European Dyaeus (the god from which Zeus & Jupiter evolved), and was once the primary god of the pantheon, while Odin was probably a real king who only came to be deified and mythologized much later in the history. Because of this, Odin is not present in the earliest tellings of Ragnarök (same story for Thor). So, I believe it is in this capacity that Odin serves in the ASOIAF novels, and is represented by the Mad King Aerys (who was killed by Jaime -- i.e. Tyr -- another clever twist). Aerys, like Odin, is known as the Mad King, and dies before the events of Ragnarök take place. However, Odin was also known for fathering bastard children, which is the one legacy Aerys left behind. Jaime & Cersei are his bastard twins, by way of the rape of Joanna Lannister (which Barristan Selmy alludes to in his conversations with Dany). This is the real reason why Ilyn Payne had his tongue cut out (for witnessing the incident), and that's why Ilyn Payne laughed at Jaime when he admitted his love for his sister to him. This is also important to the story of Tommen -- the Prince Who Was Promised. Because, Tommen is all 3 gods in one: Odin, Thor & Tyr. Odin (Aerys) is his grandfather. Thor (Robert Baratheon) is his supposed father. And Tyr (Jaime) is his real father, making Tommen Vidarr -- Vengeance -- slayer of Fenrir (which is foreshadowed in A Game of Thrones, when Tommen & Bran spar with each other out on the training grounds of Winterfell).
Thor
-The Storm Lord with the war hammer who hates Jormungandr (Dany) is obviously Robert Baratheon. But in this regard, GRRM is following the same model as with Odin. Thor was not a part of the Norse pantheon when the religion was in its infancy. He was likely a real king who was only deified later in history, and would not have been present in the earliest tellings of Ragnarök. And for this reason, King Robert didn't survive the wild boar that gored him. But, in Robert Baratheon, GRRM also added another story from Norse mythology -- that of Hoenir and Mimir. Hoenir was a "large and powerful" king who was sent to rule over the Vanir after a civil war between the gods (FYI: the Norse pantheon is divided into two Houses -- that of the Vanir & that of the Æsir. Most of the major gods belong to the Æsir, so the Vanir were usually the losers in any kind of conflict or contest between the two). But, unfortunately for the Vanir, Hoenir never wanted to govern. He always wanted others to make decisions for him. And his responsibilities were often dumped on Mimir, his wise counsel, who was forced to rule in his place. Feeling cheated by this arrangement, the Vanir decided to behead Mimir and send his bones back to the Æsir. This is symbolic of the story of King Robert & Ned Stark. Robert was the large & powerful king who came to power after a civil war, but never wanted to rule, and Ned was his wise counsel, who often ruled in his place, but ended up getting his head chopped off after joining the Small Council in King's Landing. Clever how GRRM fit these subplots into the larger story.
Freyr
-Freyr, the phallic deity of male virility, is represented by none other than Walder Frey and his many children (it's even in the name). This goes to show that GRRM has a good sense of humor, because there's very little about him that comes off as "godlike". He's a cruel, conniving weasel... but it's Cersei who says on the TV show that "The gods are cruel. That's why they're gods". That was a big hint as to what's really going on, because GRRM is portraying the gods as oppressive and the giants/monsters as oppressed, which I think is clever. Freyr is foretold to die at the hands of the fire giant Surtr, who is represented by Jon Snow. This makes sense because when Catelyn is resurrected by Beric Dondarrion and converted to the Lord of Light, she becomes obsessed with revenge against the Freys for carrying out the Red Wedding. So, it stands to reason that once Jon is raised, killing Walder Frey will become his primary concern as well (funny too that Jon & Cat will finally see eye-to-eye). Another clue can be found in Walder's ancestral castle -- "the Twins" -- which is an allusion to Freyr & Freyja.
Heimdallr
-Heimdallr is the Watcher. He lives opposite Surtr at the Bifrost Bridge and is symbolized by the horn he sounds to warn the gods at the outset of Ragnarök. What's more is Heimdallr doesn't have a father (he was "born of nine mothers") and is described as the "whitest" or "palest of gods". Samwell Tarly lives with Jon Snow at the Wall and was born on Horn Hill. He was disowned by his father because he's such a cowardly momma's boy (fyi: to "turn white" or "turn pale" is an expression for cowardice). So, I'm assuming Samwell will be the first to notice the changes in Jon Snow, and might also come across some kind of lost information about Bloodraven & the White Walkers while doing his research. He may even find the Horn of Winter as well, which Jon Snow will steal from him and use to knock down the Wall, at which point Samwell will finally send his ravens and warn the people of Westeros of the danger. He will then go on to kill and be killed by Bloodraven, because he will feel guilty for having aided in his capture of Bran, by way of Coldhands (fyi: Heimdallr & Loki are foretold to kill each other at Ragnarök -- which is foreshadowed by the business with "Sam the Slayer". The TV show even took it a step further. Bloodraven's flock signals and draws the White Walker to Samwell, and subsequently chases him after he kills it).
From LINK
In A Song of Ice and Fire, these roosters are symbolized by the 3 armies that remain in control at the end of the War of the Five Kings. The Crimson Rooster is symbolized by the Lannister army, which is in control of Westeros. The Golden Rooster (which raises heroes from the dead) is symbolized by the Golden Company, which is led by Aegon Targaryen & Jon Connington (i.e. heroes from the dead), and is contesting the Lannister army for power. And lastly, the Red Rooster that crows at the gates of Hel is symbolized by the Red Priests, who are working to control the forces of Ice & Fire (i.e. Jon Snow & his White Walkers by way of Melisandre, and Daenerys Targaryen & her dragons by way of Moqorro, respectively).
Also of interest, the first person to hear these roosters -- the first person to know that Ragnarök has begun -- is a herdsman and harpist named Eggther who is a "ward of giants". He is sitting on a mound, playing his harp when the roosters crow. He is represented by Mance Rayder -- a musician-king who rules over giants and attempts to herd them into the Realm after he sees the first signs of the coming conflagration.
Other Gods & Monsters Represented:
Odin
-Although Odin has many roles and epithets, one of them is the Mad God -- as he is associated with fits of madness & rage -- and is usually depicted as an old man with a long white beard, and shaggy white hair. In the earliest incarnations of Norse mythology, Odin wasn't even worshipped as a god. Tyr is equivalent to Indo-European Dyaeus (the god from which Zeus & Jupiter evolved), and was once the primary god of the pantheon, while Odin was probably a real king who only came to be deified and mythologized much later in the history. Because of this, Odin is not present in the earliest tellings of Ragnarök (same story for Thor). So, I believe it is in this capacity that Odin serves in the ASOIAF novels, and is represented by the Mad King Aerys (who was killed by Jaime -- i.e. Tyr -- another clever twist). Aerys, like Odin, is known as the Mad King, and dies before the events of Ragnarök take place. However, Odin was also known for fathering bastard children, which is the one legacy Aerys left behind. Jaime & Cersei are his bastard twins, by way of the rape of Joanna Lannister (which Barristan Selmy alludes to in his conversations with Dany). This is the real reason why Ilyn Payne had his tongue cut out (for witnessing the incident), and that's why Ilyn Payne laughed at Jaime when he admitted his love for his sister to him. This is also important to the story of Tommen -- the Prince Who Was Promised. Because, Tommen is all 3 gods in one: Odin, Thor & Tyr. Odin (Aerys) is his grandfather. Thor (Robert Baratheon) is his supposed father. And Tyr (Jaime) is his real father, making Tommen Vidarr -- Vengeance -- slayer of Fenrir (which is foreshadowed in A Game of Thrones, when Tommen & Bran spar with each other out on the training grounds of Winterfell).
Thor
-The Storm Lord with the war hammer who hates Jormungandr (Dany) is obviously Robert Baratheon. But in this regard, GRRM is following the same model as with Odin. Thor was not a part of the Norse pantheon when the religion was in its infancy. He was likely a real king who was only deified later in history, and would not have been present in the earliest tellings of Ragnarök. And for this reason, King Robert didn't survive the wild boar that gored him. But, in Robert Baratheon, GRRM also added another story from Norse mythology -- that of Hoenir and Mimir. Hoenir was a "large and powerful" king who was sent to rule over the Vanir after a civil war between the gods (FYI: the Norse pantheon is divided into two Houses -- that of the Vanir & that of the Æsir. Most of the major gods belong to the Æsir, so the Vanir were usually the losers in any kind of conflict or contest between the two). But, unfortunately for the Vanir, Hoenir never wanted to govern. He always wanted others to make decisions for him. And his responsibilities were often dumped on Mimir, his wise counsel, who was forced to rule in his place. Feeling cheated by this arrangement, the Vanir decided to behead Mimir and send his bones back to the Æsir. This is symbolic of the story of King Robert & Ned Stark. Robert was the large & powerful king who came to power after a civil war, but never wanted to rule, and Ned was his wise counsel, who often ruled in his place, but ended up getting his head chopped off after joining the Small Council in King's Landing. Clever how GRRM fit these subplots into the larger story.
Freyr
-Freyr, the phallic deity of male virility, is represented by none other than Walder Frey and his many children (it's even in the name). This goes to show that GRRM has a good sense of humor, because there's very little about him that comes off as "godlike". He's a cruel, conniving weasel... but it's Cersei who says on the TV show that "The gods are cruel. That's why they're gods". That was a big hint as to what's really going on, because GRRM is portraying the gods as oppressive and the giants/monsters as oppressed, which I think is clever. Freyr is foretold to die at the hands of the fire giant Surtr, who is represented by Jon Snow. This makes sense because when Catelyn is resurrected by Beric Dondarrion and converted to the Lord of Light, she becomes obsessed with revenge against the Freys for carrying out the Red Wedding. So, it stands to reason that once Jon is raised, killing Walder Frey will become his primary concern as well (funny too that Jon & Cat will finally see eye-to-eye). Another clue can be found in Walder's ancestral castle -- "the Twins" -- which is an allusion to Freyr & Freyja.
Heimdallr
-Heimdallr is the Watcher. He lives opposite Surtr at the Bifrost Bridge and is symbolized by the horn he sounds to warn the gods at the outset of Ragnarök. What's more is Heimdallr doesn't have a father (he was "born of nine mothers") and is described as the "whitest" or "palest of gods". Samwell Tarly lives with Jon Snow at the Wall and was born on Horn Hill. He was disowned by his father because he's such a cowardly momma's boy (fyi: to "turn white" or "turn pale" is an expression for cowardice). So, I'm assuming Samwell will be the first to notice the changes in Jon Snow, and might also come across some kind of lost information about Bloodraven & the White Walkers while doing his research. He may even find the Horn of Winter as well, which Jon Snow will steal from him and use to knock down the Wall, at which point Samwell will finally send his ravens and warn the people of Westeros of the danger. He will then go on to kill and be killed by Bloodraven, because he will feel guilty for having aided in his capture of Bran, by way of Coldhands (fyi: Heimdallr & Loki are foretold to kill each other at Ragnarök -- which is foreshadowed by the business with "Sam the Slayer". The TV show even took it a step further. Bloodraven's flock signals and draws the White Walker to Samwell, and subsequently chases him after he kills it).
This post was edited on 6/26/13 at 10:16 am
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