Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS - Page 378 - TigerDroppings.com

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OaklandFire
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


Part 5:

From LINK

Frigg
-Frigg is the Queen of Asgard who has the power of prophecy, which she chooses not to share with anyone. She begins to lose it when her son Baldr is killed, and is jealous of Freyja for being more beautiful than she is. She is represented by Cersei Lannister, who is the Queen of Westeros, and has never shared the prophecies she learned from "Maggy the Frog" with anyone. She is driven to madness when her beloved son Joffrey is killed, and is jealous of Margaery Tyrell's youth and beauty... so much so that she ends up framing Margaery for infidelity to Tommen.

Freyja
-Freyja is the goddess of beauty, love, fertility, gold, death & war. She owns two cats, and wears a cloak made of falcon feathers. She is married to Odr, whose names means "madness" or "furious", or "the frenzied one", and is always absent, and her own name (i.e. fruvor) was also a title bestowed on noble ladies in ancient times. And, it is noted that the common people considered her to be the most approachable of the gods. Margaery Tyrell is both renowned for her beauty and is associated with love, as she's been wed and re-wed three different times. She gave Tommen kittens as wedding gifts, and likes to take her noble ladies out falconing. Similarly, she is associated with gold (the Tyrells are rich), death (she and her grandmother poisoned Joffrey) and war (her family saved the Lannisters from Stannis). Plus, in both Joffrey and Renly she married men very much like Odr -- the former a sadistic madman, the latter always absent. And, as is made clear on the Game of Thrones TV show, the small folk consider her the most approachable of the nobility, by far in a way. It should also be said, flowers were often used to symbolize Freyja -- and, of course, a rose is the sigil of House Tyrell. Another interesting connection can be seen in Freyja's often conflicting character -- i.e. according to certain myths, she's the goddess of fertility, whereas in others, she's related to virginity. And, in ASOIAF this is represented by Margaery's trial for infidelity to Tommen. Is she promiscuous or is she a virgin? A question often asked of Freyja.

Idunn
-Idunn is a goddess of youth and beauty associated with apples. She is married to Bragi, who is the god of poetry -- the most eloquent of the gods. Bragi supposedly has the most "skill and fluency with words", but is accused of cowardice by both Loki, and his own mother, Frigg. The most well-known story relating to the pair is that of Thjazi (pronounced Theyazi) the giant, who kidnaps Idunn. With the help of Loki, Thjazi is able to lure Idunn out of Asgard with the promise of a fresh apple, before turning himself into an eagle and snatching her up, stealing her away, back to his mountain stronghold. The gods eventually force Loki to rescue her (which he does by transforming into a falcon) and they then kill Thjazi when he comes chasing after the two. And in another story -- the Lokasenna -- Loki accuses Idunn of marrying her brother's killer (the brother goes unnamed, but whoever he was, Bragi apparently killed him, because she does not refute the charge). Which set me on the trail of Sansa Stark. But I just couldn't figure out how she was related to apples (because that's a major aspect of Idunn's character -- she's always symbolized by apples). Until I googled "Sansa Apple". Bingo. Turns out, a "Sansa" is a type of apple, just like a Fuji or a Red Delicious. So there you have it, a youthful beauty, whose name means "Apple" marries her brother's/father's killer (or almost does), and is subsequently stolen away to a mountain stronghold (the Eyrie), which is symbolized by a falcon (granted, a Sparrow took her there, rather than an Eagle, but same idea). So, we know who Sansa is. And, while it's possible Littlefinger is Bragi (i.e. he uses words as his weapon), I'm pretty sure he's Thjazi. Thjazi is a giant who turns into a bird (i.e. an eagle) and kidnaps Idunn, hiding her away in a mountain stronghold. Similarly, the sigil of Littlefinger's House was a giant (i.e. the Titan of Braavos) before he changed it to a bird (i.e. a swallow). And likewise, he steals Sansa from King's Landing and hides her away in a mountain stronghold. As for her rescuer -- whereas it's possible Loki (in falcon form) is represented by Bloodraven, I'm pretty sure Harrold Hardyng (aka the Young Falcon) represents Sansa's "savior". And, this could mean that she'll eventually be returned to King's Landing (i.e. Asgard) to live amongst the gods (i.e. the Lannisters), and Littlefinger will die at their hands when they discover his treachery.

Njördr
-Njördr is a god of the Vanir who was sent to live amongst the Æsir as a hostage following a civil war between the gods. He's a sea god associated with sailing but was sent to live amongst the "wolves" in the mountains, which he came to resent ("Hateful for me are the mountains, I was not long there, only nine nights. The howling of the wolves sounded ugly to me after the song of the swans". --Prose Edda). Similarly, in the Lokasenna, Loki calls Njördr a pervert, which was a major aspect of Theon's character prior to his imprisonment. And, Njördr's association with priesthoods can be seen in Theon's baptism into the cult of the Drowned God. What's more is Njördr is said to have coupled with his sister, which Theon unwittingly attempted to do with Asha, and was thoroughly humiliated for it. But, the problems with this connection arise with Theon's transformation into Reek. That could be related to the legend of the Danish hero Hadingus, who is basically Njördr personified, although there are some differences there as well (i.e. Hadingus was a hero, namely, which Theon clearly is not). Possibly of interest, Hadingus was said to have travelled to hell and ended up hanging himself in front of his subjects upon his return. And, in the earliest times, Njördr was thought to be a genderless god, related to the goddess Nerthus, and was neither male nor female, which could be a reference to Theon's castration. What this could mean for his future is hard to say. Hadingus, for one, married his sister and became a king, only to commit suicide in the end (as I previously mentioned). And, if nothing else, Theon definitely seems a likely candidate for suicide. But we'll have to see how GRRM works that out.



This post was edited on 6/26 at 10:14 am


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OaklandFire
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


Part 6:

From: LINK

Kvasir
-Following a civil war fought between the gods, the Æsir and Vanir called truce, and affirmed their pact by spitting into a vat. From this spit, a being called Kvasir was born, already fully grown. Sound weird? Yeah. But, anyway, he was supposedly the wisest of the "gods" (although, it's not exactly clear whether he was considered a god or not. He's more akin to a godlike being -- and some texts even refer to him as a "man"), and could answer any question posed to him. He travelled throughout the world, spreading his knowledge, and acting as a teacher to both gods and men... that is, until two dwarves invited him into their home. Rather unwittingly, he accepted their invitation and was subsequently murdered by them upon entering (which, of course, was ironic, being that his knowledge was so vast, yet he was totally naive when it came to street smarts). The dwarves then drained his blood into a vat and mixed it with honey, creating the "Mead of Poetry", which conferred great wisdom upon those who drank it. In ASOIAF, Jojen Reed was a precocious boy who possessed wisdom far beyond his years, so much so, he was called the "Little Grandfather". He was born after Robert's Rebellion, and travelled beyond the Wall with Bran, acting as his teacher and guide along the way. Although not a greenseer like Bran, the gift of greensight was strong in him, and he answered all of the questions Bran posed to him about it. That is, until he was invited to the cave of Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest, where he was murdered and drained of his blood. The Children then mixed his blood with weirwood seeds, creating the wisdom-imbuing "weirwood paste" they fed to Bran. Or, at least, I think that's how (and why) it went down. Because, even though GRRM has yet to reveal Jojen's fate, all signs point to him being direwolf chow.

Hati
-Hati is a warg (i.e. a monstrous wolf) and a son of Fenrir. His name means "He Who Hates", and he is said to chase the moon through the night's sky. Come Ragnarök, he is foretold to swallow the moon. In ASOIAF, Hati is represented by Arya Stark, who is both a warg and a wolf. She clearly hates her enemies, more so than any of the other Stark children, as she recites a list of names of the people she wants to murder each night before she goes to bed. She is also "chasing the moon" in her quest to become a Faceless Man (FYI: a moon is carved on the door of the House of Black & White, which is where the Kindly Old Man trains her to become an assassin). So, her becoming a Faceless Man is a sign that Ragnarök has begun (i.e. she has finally caught the moon -- Valar Morghulis). On a side note, I believe Arya is destined to be killed in her sleep, while dreaming her wolf dream. Her soul will then be transferred to the body of Nymeria, who is stalking the Trident with a massive pack of wolves (i.e. the pack Arya has always wanted). Nymeria was a legendary warrior queen in Westerosi history who crossed the Narrow Sea with a fleet of ships in ancient times to conquer Dorne. Her relationship to Arya is symbolic in the sense that Arya's soul will transmigrate across the Narrow Sea into her wolf's body when she dies, to conquer the Riverlands and/or Winterfell. This will also be the opposite of what happens to Jon Snow, as his wolf -- Ghost -- will die when he is killed by the Night's Watch, as foreshadowed on the TV show, when Jon threatens the Wildling warg, Orell (i.e. "When I kill you, what happens to your eagle? Does it drop dead from the sky?" -- paraphrasing).

Fafnir
-Fafnir is a dwarf whose father is the richest man in the world. In an act of treachery, Fafnir murders his father and steals his gold. He then flees with the treasure and transforms into a dragon in order to protect it. And, although Fafnir is not involved in the Ragnarök mythology, he is the central antagonist in the tales of the legendary hero Sigurd (and, I have yet to identify Sigurd). So, it's difficult to say what role he will play in future events, but Fafnir is clearly Tyrion Lannister. Like Fafnir, Tyrion is also a dwarf who slays his wealthy father and then flees across the Narrow Sea to the protection of a dragon (Danaerys Targaryen). He then uses his supposed status as "heir of Casterly Rock" to join the Second Sons mercenary company, which in itself is a clue -- Tyrion is the heir of Casterly Rock... NOT a Second Son. He is Tywin's only son. But Jaime is a second son (second to Rhaegar), as is Jon Snow (second to Aegon), Bran (second to Robb) and Stannis (second to Robert). So, there is clearly something to that. But it's funny that the clues in both Tyrion's name (i.e. Tyr) and the Second Sons allude to Jaime rather than Tyrion. Perhaps Jaime is Sigurd? If GRRM used Thor as a platform for Hoenir, it's possible he could combine the stories of Tyr & Sigurd as well.

Garmr
-[Edit: see post "Direwolves, Wargs & the Stark Children" for information about Rickon as Garmr. I had Garmr tentatively identified as Gregor Clegane in this post, but a commenter was able to make a much better connection to Rickon.] Garmr is the "bloodstained watchdog who guards Hel's gate". He is described as a massive dog, the "greatest of dogs", who will similarly slip his bonds at Ragnarök and attack the god Tyr. What's interesting about Garmr is that he was only added to the mythology in the 12th - 13th century by the Icelandic poet, Snorri Sturluson (inspired by the hellhound Cerberus, from Greek mythology) and was not present in the earliest tellings of Ragnarök. It is believed he is akin to Fenrir, and was substituted as an adversary for Tyr after Tyr was supplanted as the primary god in the pantheon by Odin. Prior to this switch, Tyr was foretold to prevail over Fenrir in his role as "the Mighty One" (i.e. Azor Ahai). And since Aerys & Robert Baratheon have already been killed off in ASOIAF, I believe GRRM is adhering to the earlier versions of the mythology. With that being said, we do seem to have a match for Garmr in Gregor Clegane -- the Mountain. While it's possible Garmr is Sandor Clegane -- the Hound -- Sandor is not quite as big as his older brother, and Garmr is described as the "greatest of dogs". Not to mention the fact that Sandor has a deep-seated fear of fire -- because of Gregor -- and is unlikely to back the Lord of Light under any circumstances (and, it appears he now walks in the light of the Seven, if we are to believe he's the monk Brienne sees on the Quiet Isle). However, Gregor is in perfect position to be converted to the Lord of Light, as he was killed by Oberyn Martell and subsequently resurrected by Qyburn. And, even though Qyburn is a disgraced Maester, rather than a Red Priest, the assumption here is that Gregor's zombified condition creates an avenue for the Lord of Light to manipulate. So, this could mean that Gregor will "slip his bonds" by breaking the hold that Qyburn & Cersei have over him and going rogue (not rogue, per se, since he's being controlled by Bloodraven, but rogue in the eyes of Qyburn & Cersei).

Hrym
-Hrym is the captain of the ship Naglfar, which sets sail from the lands of the east to ferry hordes of giants into Asgard during the battle of Ragnarök. There isn't much to him other than that, but he's represented by Victarion Greyjoy, who has taken the Iron Fleet east to pick up Danaerys Targaryen and her dragons.






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OaklandFire
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


Part 7:

From LINK


The Kraken
-The Kraken is a massive cuttlefish from Norse mythology that is foretold to surface during the events of Ragnarök. Though it does not figure prominently into the story, and was likely a later invention, much the same as Garmr, it is said to appear out of nowhere and pull ships into the sea off the coasts of Midgard & Asgard. And, it was said to be so large in size that the sailors who supposedly came across it often mistook it for an island. Obviously, House Greyjoy represents the kraken in ASOIAF. It is the sigil of their house, and they are raiders who live on an island off the coast of Westeros. Plus, they are infamous for their stealth tactics, having burned the Lannister fleet at Lannisport during the Greyjoy Rebellion. What's more is, unlike the other peoples of Westeros, they sail Viking longships rather than galleys and carracks, like the Lannister, Baratheon & Tyrell fleets. So, their "resurfacing", after Euron takes the Seastone Chair and invades the Reach, is a sign that Ragnarök has begun.

The Spider
-The Norse believed women called Norns wove the fates of gods & men under the World Tree Yggdrasil. Each of their threads represented a person's life, and the patterns they wove represented the relationships people had with one another. In addition to weaving fate, the Norns were also responsible for watering Yggdrasil, so it wouldn't die. Because of this mythology, the Norse held spiders to be holy -- nature's weavers. It was believed they held the power to link the past to the future. In ASOIAF, the character Varys, who is called "the Spider", is a weaver of the fates of men, working behind the scenes to connect the past to the future (i.e. to install Aegon Targaryen upon the Iron Throne). And, even though he's not female, as the Norns always are, he was castrated in his youth. And, it's possible he "waters the World Tree" by warring against black/blood magic (which is a tool Loki will use to rot the World Tree). But then again, not all Norns were good. People who suffered calamity and misfortune were said to be under the thrall of bad, or evil Norns. And, when one considers the wild goose chase Varys sent Danaerys on (i.e. marrying her off to a brutal nomadic warlord, and subsequently commissioning Jorah Mormont to assassinate her), he may not be such a good Norn. However, if Dany represents the World Serpent, Varys may have been trying to preserve the World Tree by casting her into the Dothraki Sea (much the same as Odin casts Jormungandr into the sea).

The Fool
-Now, this may seem cruel (because it is), but the ancient and medieval Norse used to force the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped to act as court jesters. They usually weren't overly abusive to these "fools", but they did find their humiliation amusing, and would force them to "perform" (i.e. to make fools of themselves) at feasts and festivals, and the like. We see this same practice in ASOIAF, as the court jesters of most of the major houses are either mentally ill or handicapped in some way (i.e. Moon Boy, Butterbumps, Patchface Jinglebell, etc.). The exception we see is in Dontos Hollard, who was a disgraced knight-cum-fool in King's Landing. But that fits the culture as well. Because, alcoholics and disgraced members of society were often employed as court jesters as punishment.

In any case, I've only just touched upon the surface of it. But I think this is enough info for my first post. Stay tuned for further details. Granted, I may be completely wrong about all of this, or certain conclusions that I've drawn from it, or what have you. So, take it for what it's worth. And don't let it discourage you from your own theories about the books/show. Your guess is as good as mine.

Fun Fact: It wasn't Tyr[ion] or Walder Frey[r] who clued me in to this theory. It was Hodor. In the story of the death of Baldr, Loki tricks Baldr's blind & dim-witted brother, Hodr (also spelled Hodur), who is noted for his strength, into killing Baldr. The name piqued my interest, and the somewhat similar description really got me curious -- dim-witted Hodor & blind Hodur, and the two are both associated with a shapeshifter -- Loki (i.e. Bloodraven). But it was initially nothing more than the name itself that put me on this trail and got me thinking.

I should also add that an anonymous commenter pointed out that the name Eddard Stark could be an allusion to the Prose Edda (i.e. our main source for Ragnarök mythology -- which is most definitely a grim, or a "stark" Edda). Similarly, commenter Southron brought it to my attention that the names for the books in the series are kennings (i.e. metaphors in Old Norse poetry -- i.e. A Game of Thrones = Power Struggle. A Feast for Crows = Armistice, etc.). I think both are right on the money, and pretty clever at that. Nice work.

FYI: I've posted a number of my theories on the message boards at Westeros.org under the screen name "BrosBeforeSnows", and on WinterIsComing.net under the screen name "Varamyr Fourskins", if anyone cares to look them up. I haven't posted on Westeros in a while, but I still drop by WiC on a fairly regular basis. However, I did post what essentially amounts to the building blocks, or the blueprints for this theory over at Westeros in a thread titled "Jaime & Bran" (there was another one as well, but I can't remember what it was called -- maybe, "A Guide to Norse Mythology" or "The Ragnarok Connection", or something like that). I'd identified a few of the characters and their significance back then, but it wasn't nearly so comprehensive as this. But, you can see the evolution of it, if you want to read more about it. I'd also recommend the "Heresy" thread. They've gone in a different direction than I have, but "Black Crow" first posted it around the same time I posted "Jaime & Bran", not long after A Dance with Dragons was released, and there's a lot of good stuff in there (I mentioned in the comment section below that it wasn't until after ADwD came out that we could begin to piece this together, since the identity and motives of the 3-Eyed Crow hadn't been revealed yet).






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OaklandFire
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


Again I say,







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OMLandshark
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


quote:

How is that any different from Slynt taking bribes and betraying Ned?


Ramsay's required a bit more competence on his part. Slynt was just a person who sold out for the highest bidder. Ramsay was calculating to the utmost extreme.






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Dire Wolf
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS








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ladytiger118
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


Holy shite.

So based on all that Norse Mythology, Jon is going to become bad?!?
Those descriptions/parallels are excellent.
Someone please clarify this lol.






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ColaTiger
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


Holy shite. Will read later.





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TigerRad
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


OK that Norse shite is the most mindblowing analysis I have ever seen.

So a reborn John Snow will lead the others into battle against the forces of Men? What in the mother of all frick?






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Methuselah
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Did a quick google search and here is one discussion of that theory . It is in the comments to This discussion.





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CE Tiger
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


shits getting real in this thread but thought id share this







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Hugo Stiglitz
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Mr. Wayne
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


I think it's obvious that aSoIaF is influenced by Ragnarok, but I disagree with the main point of his argument.

quote:

The battle is not Dragons vs. White Walkers. It's Dragons & White Walkers vs. Mankind.


It is my opinion that harmony being referenced is the Ice & Fire that Jon Snow descends from. In order to defeat the White Walkers and unite the 7 kingdoms, Jon needs to balance the superior traits of both families, Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire). Once he does this, he will be the King that is needed to lead mankind through the Winter that has just arrived. The Others only weakness is dragonglass. I'm pretty sure if man doesn't have dragons on their side, it will be a one sided fight.






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NIH
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


quote:

Aerys left behind. Jaime & Cersei are his bastard twins, by way of the rape of Joanna Lannister (which Barristan Selmy alludes to in his conversations with Dany). This is the real reason why Ilyn Payne had his tongue cut out (for witnessing the incident), and that's why Ilyn Payne laughed at Jaime when he admitted his love for his sister to him. This is also important to the story of Tommen -- the Prince Who Was Promised. Because, Tommen is all 3 gods in one: Odin, Thor & Tyr. Odin (Aerys) is his grandfather. Thor (Robert Baratheon) is his supposed father. And Tyr (Jaime) is his real father, making Tommen Vidarr -- Vengeance -- slayer of Fenrir (which is foreshadowed in A Game of Thrones, when Tommen & Bran spar with each other out on the training grounds of Winterfell).









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Tiger Voodoo
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


quote:

It is my opinion that harmony being referenced is the Ice & Fire that Jon Snow descends from. In order to defeat the White Walkers and unite the 7 kingdoms, Jon needs to balance the superior traits of both families, Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire). Once he does this, he will be the King that is needed to lead mankind through the Winter that has just arrived.



That's obviously the way most of us view the name of the series, and this Ragnarok crackpot has not convinced me otherwise, at least at this point, despite the very impressive research and knowledge of the blogger.

I do think it's obvious, though, that GRRM is very well acquainted with this Norse mythology, and it heavily influenced him in his writing of ASOIAF.

So clearly studying this theory could provide a lot of insight and clues as to where certain things could be headed.

But I do think the blogger takes a big leap in his thesis:

quote:

And that is Ragnarök -- the forces of ice & fire uniting as one to attack the world of gods and men.



Our theory isn't that I&F are the forces of each side uniting, but that Jon is literally I&F personified, and he is the PtwP to defend the realm of gods and men against forces from both sides that seek to bring ruin to the realm.

And that is primarily where this theory is lacking IMO. Notably absent from his character/comparison are both RHAEGAR and LYANNA, and any reference to Jon's possible parentage between the two.

Even his presentation of Aerys/Odin focuses partially on his relationship to Jamie/Tyr.

It is basically a fatal flaw of an otherwise impressive argument IMO to leave out R&L.

Just my two cents, but I still really enjoyed reading it nonetheless.

Here's the wiki entry on Ragnarok:

LINK

And another site with good info:

timelessmyths.com






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LiterallyPolice
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


quote:

That blog literally blew my mind.

FOR REAL BRO?!?!?






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OaklandFire
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


Do you just do a TD search for "literally" all the time?





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LiterallyPolice
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I'm surprised you were able to come to that conclusion with a blown mind. Very impressive to say the least.





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OaklandFire
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


It regenerates quite quickly, thank you very much.





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chryso
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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS


quote:

It is basically a fatal flaw of an otherwise impressive argument IMO to leave out R&L.

Just my two cents, but I still really enjoyed reading it nonetheless.



I don't think that you can say that a fatal flaw of one theory is that it doesn't match up with another theory when neither is known to be correct at this time.






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