Page 1
Page 1
Started By
Message

LOTR (Books) discussion- did Saruman actually win?

Posted on 9/17/23 at 11:24 pm
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20411 posts
Posted on 9/17/23 at 11:24 pm
I had a very interesting chat session on the Nerd of the Rings youtube channel, which raised a very valid question:

Is Saruman really gone? Note, in the books, he is stabbed by Wormtongue during the Scouring of the Shire, so that makes this not relevant to the movies.

Here's the gist- Saruman is a Maia, not a Man or Elf. They do not die. Yes, he was stabbed in the back, and his body was 'dead', and then as I recall, very similar description as to the end of Sauron. A haze or smoke arose and turned to the West, and was dispersed by a wind (Manwe rejecting him I suppose). And, ... he's gone.

But wait:
The Wise knew full well that Saruman studied the devices of the Enemy more than anyone else, even before they perceived he was a traitor.
When he imprisoned Gandalf, TWICE (I think) there was reference to him having a ring on his finger.

During this period, while he was Saruman of Many Colors, he both imprisoned Gandalf the Gray against his will, and then withstood the Nazgul that Sauron sent to retrieve Pippin- Pippin looked into the Palantir, Sauron thought that meant Saruman had a Hobbit, specifically Frodo and the Ring. Saruman obviously didn't, and didn't know what the deal even was, as at that point he no longer possessed the Palantir. Yet even with refusal to produce the Hobbit (and Ring) willingly, as well as screwing up against Rohan, his consequences against the Nazgul were... nada. He apparently was still powerful enough to repel them.

He then convinces Treebeard to let him leave, and ... we lose track of him until he's in the Shire as Sharkey. And at that point, he's significantly less powerful than he had been, and he also did not have a ring either.
You could almost say, he was diminished, as though he had put his power into something else (like a ring, to magnify it), and then had removed it, leaving him a shell of his former self.

BUT WHY.... here's where it gets interesting, because it stays within canon if you consider it.

1) Maia don't die, they just get diminished. Sauron himself didn't die, he just lost the major part of his power, and could not reform again once the Ring was unmade. But Sauron, while his Ring was around, COULD reform. He was caught up in the cataclysm of Numenor, that didn't stop him from returning centuries later. He was "defeated" by the Last Alliance, and dispelled when Isildur cut the Ring from his hand, but again after a few thousand years, he was able to grow back into power. Gollum stated that the Black Hand only had 9 fingers, but that was enough... Gollum saw Sauron.

2) Saruman could not defeat Gandalf the White, nor the Eldar, especially the Noldor, even with his own ring. And he'd have a tough time even contending with Aragorn in Gondor, alone.
But again, Saruman is immortal, he has time to wait. Time to allow Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and all their followers to sail over the sea. Time to let Aragorn grow old and die. Time for the world of Men to forget about Powers other than themselves.
You can argue that his ringcraft isn't as good as Celebrimbor and Sauron's were, but that's not the point. What he needed was something that he could push his own power into, and maybe magnify it somewhat. He studied, he made his own... so it isn't tied to the fate of Sauron's. It doesn't even need to give him full restoration of powers if he is slain, just the ability to reform, and maintain a good percentage... and he's still the most powerful figure left in Middle Earth.
You could say it was the ultimate tactical retreat.

And then, Saruman over the centuries regains his form, as Sauron did. He retrieves his own ring, as Sauron did after Numenor. What then? Well, what did he do beforehand??- He invented new means of warfare, like the Orthanc-fire used to blow holes in the walls of Helm's Deep; gunpowder. And he controlled rulers, so they were his puppets, like Theoden. Probably the Dunlendings too.

So, is Saruman the Illuminati? The Military/Industrial Complex that controls countries, making new means of warfare and running things from the shadows? Why would he NOT be that? It was always his game, that and being the ultimate smooth talker, and it would seem the world of Men has always been driven by that pursuit.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20411 posts
Posted on 9/18/23 at 11:34 pm to
Anyone have any takes on this?

Is there a flaw in the logic? I miss anything?
Posted by iwyLSUiwy
I'm your huckleberry
Member since Apr 2008
34319 posts
Posted on 9/19/23 at 10:56 am to
Just a basic off the top of my head answer that posted in the M/TV thread...

Gandalf was sent back by either Eru or the Valar (I don't think there is a definite answer to who sent him back) to finish his task. There was a defined task that needed to be done so there was reason to reincarnate him. They didn't have to send them back if they didn't want to. So I'm sure when Saruman died either Eru or the Valar had the option of what to do with him just like they did Gandalf. There would be no reason for them to keep him in a state or position to have any influence or ever grow in power again. No reason to reincarnate him at all.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
17856 posts
Posted on 9/19/23 at 8:34 pm to
quote:

Anyone have any takes on this?

Is there a flaw in the logic? I miss anything?


I would say that there are several. Here are the two most obvious:

1) His "withstanding" the Nazgul isn't really what happened. What happened is that Orthanc withstood the Nazgul, just as Orthanc withstood the Ents. That isn't about Saruman's power -- it's the power in the tower itself.

2) Gandalf, and later Frodo, caution that most of Saruman's power is gone, with the exception of his voice. Though Saruman may have made trials of putting power into a ring, he did not himself possess the power to forge a Great Ring. His source of power was tied to his staff, not a ring, and Gandalf the White broke Saruman's staff, which took away most of his power.
Posted by CoachChappy
Member since May 2013
32551 posts
Posted on 9/20/23 at 1:45 pm to
Saruman's ring- He studied ring lore longest and deepest of the Istari. However, it wasn't until he was caught by Sauron that he appeared with a ring. It's possible that Sauron gave him 1 of the lesser rings or taught him to create his own ring. Either way, that new ring is tied of the fate of the rings of power. Once, the ruling ring is destroyed, they lose all o their power. Even the Elven rings which Sauron never made or touched were diminished.

Sauron can never regain form or power. Therefore, Saruman, who was less powerful and had a lesser ring, would certainly never regain form or power. Until, perhaps, the Dagor Dagorath when Melkor returns and calls them back to his side.
This post was edited on 9/20/23 at 1:45 pm
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20411 posts
Posted on 9/20/23 at 2:24 pm to
My understanding is that Saruman looked deeply into Sauron's crafts, and began dabbling into making rings himself. He identifies himself as a ring maker...
This is from Gandalf's recount of his confrontation with Saruman
quote:

"[Saruman] met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger."
quote:

"And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"


That tells me that he made that ring, and not given by Sauron.

Saruman was not a man, nor an Elf. He was, just like Sauron, a Maia who originally was in the service of Aule, the Valar smith (basically a take on Vulcan or Hephaestus).
There's zero doubt that Aule's skill surpasses Sauron's, Saruman's, Celebrimbor or even Feanor. They learned from him, and some made fantastic things.

If we take that background of Saruman, then he's an engineer, same as his teacher, and his peer Sauron.

I don't think there's anything about a Ring that is specifically tied to Sauron. It is a device that taps into an energy. Sauron's schematics and designs, which Celebrimbor followed at the basic level even for the Three, is what allowed the One to backdoor and control the rest. I guess you could say the One is the modem, and all the rest are on that network.

Saruman likely understood that. He was the expert on the Rings, among the Wise; and that speculation that all the Rings, even the Three would fade once the One was unmade...
that's probably Saruman who worked that equation out.

So Saruman, having the same engineering background and training (PhD from Aule Tech !), would know that if he were to make such a device himself, he'd have to make his as the modem. Different connection, so it wasn't piggybacking off the One. Sauron's wifi could go down, or lose internet WAN access, doesn't matter, as Saruman's is on a differnt network.
Posted by CoachChappy
Member since May 2013
32551 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 12:45 pm to
quote:

So Saruman, having the same engineering background and training


I think here is where we differ in our interpretations. Sauron learned dark arts from Melkor after being a disciple of Aule.

Sauron guided the Elves in the making of rings. However, he never touched the 3 Elven rings of power. Therefore, he held no power over them, but their fates were intertwined.

Saruman spent a long time in Orthanc before he made a ring. We can presume that he created the ring after he was caught by Sauron in the Palantir of Orthanc. Therefore, it is through Sauron's guidance and instruction that Saruman was able to create a ring. Also, we don't know if this ring was even a ring of power. Once Gandalf came back as the white, he had the mastery over Saruman. Saruman had fallen.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20411 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 2:39 am to
quote:

I think here is where we differ in our interpretations
quote:

Saruman spent a long time in Orthanc before he made a ring. We can presume that he created the ring after he was caught by Sauron in the Palantir of Orthanc. Therefore, it is through Sauron's guidance and instruction that Saruman was able to create a ring
Ok, that's where we have a different take.

Saruman was already scheming prior to being snared by Sauron. He delved deeply into Sauron's devices, even before he actively turned. The Wise knew that he was the expert on Sauron.

I think as he pondered the mysteries of the rings of power, he fell into the "why not ME" trap- not laid by Sauron, but seeded by Melkor's theme in the Ainulindale. As in, he was always secretly tempted by ruling and ordering things himself, as much of Aule's people seemed to have been. The builders seek to control, rather than just build.
So that seed, as I said, was always there. The more he studied Sauron's tools, the more he would think "hmmm, that would work". And so he began, I suspect, working on the project beforehand. In his quest for greater knowledge, he began probing the Palantir for those parts hidden or as yet undiscovered. And then he was 'caught', but he still sought to play both sides. He was NOT allied with Sauron at heart, he perceived himself a rival- and since Sauron had made a full Ring, Sauron had the advantage. Unless he could take that Ring himself;

or that Ring (and Sauron) was taken off the table. At that point, if Saruman had any such device, however primitive, it would still be the only one working.

I'd have to check the timelines, but I think he left Orthanc after Sauron fell. Perhaps at that point, with Sauron gone, he could begin to exploit his own ring to full advantage; convince Treebeard to let him go.

It's just a theory, one I'm not sold on. I'm curious if you COULD extrapolate it going forward, if you hit any hard NO GO in it, or if it's plausible.

ADDED: Sauron's no dummy, Gandalf stated that. He's extremely calculating. He simply does not fathom anyone seeking to destroy the One Ring, so all his plans are based on someone taking it and attempting to use it for himself. That's the flaw they take advantage of.

He would perceive Saruman as far too powerful and dangerous to allow him a Ring, much less aide him in crafting one. Saruman is not a Man, or even an Elf; he's a fellow Maia.
This post was edited on 10/3/23 at 9:00 am
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 1Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram