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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:03 am to GonzoLeslie
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:03 am to GonzoLeslie
quote:
Robert
usurper
Robert won the Iron Throne through conquest. It's not like he pulled some Lann the Clever trickery.
1
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:08 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
How is Jon the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms? Robert took them by conquest. Stannis has more of a claim at the moment than any Targaryen.
True. At the same time, it's mentioned more then a few times throughout the books that there are a good portion of Westeros residents that called Robert the Usurper up until he died. So Jon could have just as legitimate of a claim in the eyes of Westeros.
This post was edited on 3/7/13 at 9:09 am
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:21 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
it's mentioned more then a few times throughout the books that there are a good portion of Westeros residents that called Robert the Usurper up until he died. So Jon could have just as legitimate of a claim in the eyes of Westeros.
Weren't those mostly baseless rumors whispered in Viserys's ear by Illyrio? I could be forgetting, but I don't really remember any first hand experience of people in Westeros anxiously waiting for the return of the Targs.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:22 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
How is Jon the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms? Robert took them by conquest. Stannis has more of a claim at the moment than any Targaryen.
Because Robert was an usurper, and by divine right (which I think Stannis adheres greatly to) Jon's rightful place on the throne was stolen from him. He'd certainly say that Jon has more of a right to be there than Tommen. I think Jon is the only person Stannis would bend the knee to.
This post was edited on 3/7/13 at 9:23 am
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:24 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
Weren't those mostly baseless rumors whispered in Viserys's ear by Illyrio? I could be forgetting, but I don't really remember any first hand experience of people in Westeros anxiously waiting for the return of the Targs.
I remember Robert bitching about it as well that some people continue to call him Usurper. I think Illyrio exaggerated how many people said that, but I'd say there were certainly some. Wouldn't shock me if the Martells called him that behind closed doors.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:28 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Because Robert was an usurper, and by divine right (which I think Stannis adheres greatly to) Jon's rightful place on the throne was stolen from him.
I am pretty positive that Stannis does not view Robert as a usurper. If he thought like that, then shouldn't the children of the forest be the rulers of Westeros. If conquest means nothing, then the Targs have no right to reign over Westeros either. The reason he is so fixated on getting Cersei's spawn off the Iron Throne is because they are ruling falsely. They are portrayed as Robert's offspring when we all know they are not.
If Stannis truly believed his brother was a usurper, he would be spending his time finding Dany instead of trying to take the Iron Throne for himself.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:35 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
Weren't those mostly baseless rumors whispered in Viserys's ear by Illyrio? I could be forgetting, but I don't really remember any first hand experience of people in Westeros anxiously waiting for the return of the Targs.
I'm pretty sure Robert himself makes the comment that he knows there are those who still call him Usurper behind his back.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:37 am to CottonWasKing
quote:
There is no heroes death waiting for Stannis
I feel the same way. Stannis acts as if his honor is the only thing driving him. Personally I see him as one of the worst cases of middle child syndrome I have ever seen. Personally I think he either kills Mel when she reveals Jon is Azor Ahai, or he dies in the attempt. I see a dark future for Stannis. He will not bend the knee to Jon simply because he is a Targ, and the Red Faith's savior. As it is, he only uses Mel and her faith to further his ambitions. Once they are no use, I fully expect to respond badly.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 10:15 am to Mr. Wayne
Aegon The Conquerer didn't take the seven kingdoms because they were his by right. He took them because he could Khaleesi.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 3:30 pm to DestrehanTiger
Crackpot theory: Tywin was also one of the orchestrators of the Purple Wedding. It would have rid him of Tyrion without kinslaying, and Joffrey as someone who would without question ruin the realm, and Sansa had outlived her usefulness after the events of the Red Wedding. He was also saying that Joffrey needed a "sharp lesson".
Perhaps that was part of the deal Littlefinger had to make, in that they wouldn't tolerate Margaery marrying someone like Joffrey, and Tywin had to agree and let it happen, although he was more than happy to let it happen. That would allow Tommen to rule, who could easily be controlled and actually turned into a good king. Plus his monstrous son would either be executed or at the Wall, never to be heard from again.
Perhaps that was part of the deal Littlefinger had to make, in that they wouldn't tolerate Margaery marrying someone like Joffrey, and Tywin had to agree and let it happen, although he was more than happy to let it happen. That would allow Tommen to rule, who could easily be controlled and actually turned into a good king. Plus his monstrous son would either be executed or at the Wall, never to be heard from again.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 3:46 pm to Mr. Wayne
quote:
*Mr. Wayne*
Stannis gets a TON of love on this board, so you won't find much support here, but I'm with you.
Stannis' "honor" is sort of a sham imo. He only hears what he wants to and turned his back on everything, his wife, his gods, to embrace whatever would get him the throne which he sees as his "by rights".
Hell, he murdered his own brother, and in a most DISHONORABLE way possible. He's a straight up kinslayer. And he didn't even have the sack to do it himself in single combat, but left it to witchcraft and sorcery.
I was shocked by all the love he got when the series came out. I kind of hated him in the books, although he has moments where Davos or Jon are able to pull the honorable side of him out, but overall he's blinded by his obsession with taking the throne and allows Melisandre to overtake any honor he has deep inside. He's driven as much by spite over being spurned by Robert when he gave Storm's End to Renly than about the good of the realm.
Stannis is no true king, and hides behind false honor and piety imo.
Hell, even Eddard Stark was wary of Stannis and had no love for him, even though Ned would have supported his claim with the info he had at the time, but not because of his belief in his ability to rule.
I mean, Stannis was going to kill Robert's son to further his claim, something we know Ned would never have allowed.
I know Stannis' theme is everyone's favorite, but I just don't get the love for his character. He is clearly being controlled by a darkness, and Jon and Davos, two people whose honor is beyond question have ZERO trust or respect for Mel, and Stannis is 100% being controlled by her.
Unless Stannis abandons Mel, he will meet a dark and dishonorable death, and that's pretty clear IMO.
This post was edited on 3/7/13 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 3/7/13 at 4:10 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Stannis gets a TON of love on this board, so you won't find much support here, but I'm with you.
Stannis' "honor" is sort of a sham imo. He only hears what he wants to and turned his back on everything, his wife, his gods, to embrace whatever would get him the throne which he sees as his "by rights".
Hell, he murdered his own brother, and in a most DISHONORABLE way possible. He's a straight up kinslayer. And he didn't even have the sack to do it himself in single combat, but left it to witchcraft and sorcery.
I was shocked by all the love he got when the series came out. I kind of hated him in the books, although he has moments where Davos or Jon are able to pull the honorable side of him out, but overall he's blinded by his obsession with taking the throne and allows Melisandre to overtake any honor he has deep inside. He's driven as much by spite over being spurned by Robert when he gave Storm's End to Renly than about the good of the realm.
Stannis is no true king, and hides behind false honor and piety imo.
Hell, even Eddard Stark was wary of Stannis and had no love for him, even though Ned would have supported his claim with the info he had at the time, but not because of his belief in his ability to rule.
I mean, Stannis was going to kill Robert's son to further his claim, something we know Ned would never have allowed.
I know Stannis' theme is everyone's favorite, but I just don't get the love for his character. He is clearly being controlled by a darkness, and Jon and Davos, two people whose honor is beyond question have ZERO trust or respect for Mel, and Stannis is 100% being controlled by her.
Unless Stannis abandons Mel, he will meet a dark and dishonorable death, and that's pretty clear IMO.
Damn, good post. Never really thought of Stannis in that regard.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 4:14 pm to DestrehanTiger
quote:
Weren't those mostly baseless rumors whispered in Viserys's ear by Illyrio? I could be forgetting, but I don't really remember any first hand experience of people in Westeros anxiously waiting for the return of the Targs.
Also, IIRC when Arya is escaping from King's Landing there are some peasants that say that how the peasants were being treated in the war would never happen under the old king. When asked if they were talking about Robert the peasants responded that they were talking about Aerys. The common people still remember the Targs fondly.
On another note, what do y'all make of the document that Robb signed that legitimized Jon? What do y'all think happened to it? Was it lost? Is it a hint that Jon will wind up ruler of the North or is it just a red herring?
Posted on 3/7/13 at 4:19 pm to DestrehanTiger
quote:
If Stannis truly believed his brother was a usurper, he would be spending his time finding Dany instead of trying to take the Iron Throne for himself.
Well, Stannis speaks of this to Davos in the books when Davos throws it in his face. Stannis basically explained that situation was the hardest decision he had ever had to make. He barely chose his blood kin over the throne in that case, so he would definitely view the Targs as fairly legit. Though I couldn't see him kneeling to Jon or Dany.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 4:41 pm to DestrehanTiger
quote:
How is Jon the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms? Robert took them by conquest. Stannis has more of a claim at the moment than any Targaryen
Of course, I think Stannis like any "king" views the right of conquest very differently depending on if they are currently in power or outside seeking to overthrow someone with an "inherited" right.
But yeah it unlikely at the present time seeing him voluntarily handing over power to Jon or Danny. But one thing about Martin's characters is that they sometimes sow development over the course of time. And there is no telling what will transpire with Jon, Danny, even Tyrion in he upcoming book(s) that might cause him to change his tune
Posted on 3/8/13 at 7:48 am to Methuselah
quote:
And there is no telling what will transpire with Jon, Danny, even Tyrion in he upcoming book(s) that might cause him to change his tune
Do I have a convert?
We were on page 3, I'm chalking that up to Thur. night drink specials.
Posted on 3/8/13 at 8:06 am to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
but I just don't get the love for his character.
I love him because he is the funniest character in the books. He has some great one-liners.
Posted on 3/8/13 at 8:35 am to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Tiger Voodoo
My take on Stannis is that he did cut and dry "honorable" for so long (basically up until we meet him in CoKs) that he finally just got fed up with getting the short end of the stick going that route. It's not just about getting passed over with Storm's End with him. He talks at length in CoK about Ned Stark being named Hand of the King when it should've been him as well. And that he knew Robert treated Ned as a brother far more then him or Renly. I think despite his facade that wounded him far deeper then he lets on. He honored his Gods and they gave him a cold wife, a daughter with Greyscale, and a couple of brothers who DGAF about him. They also gave him the experience of witnessing his parents smashed upon the rocks outside of Dragonstone. I don't agree with his stances but I can understand how he got down that path knowing all of that.
Now that's not to say he doesn't deserve whatever comes to him as a result. And I think you're right in that it's not going to be pretty when he goes out. But there are very few truly honorable characters to the core in the series so I have a hard time having so much ire for him.
And let's be honest, Jamie Lannister pushes kids out windows and fricks his sister but he's probably a favorite as well (he's certainly one of mine). Moral compasses are a bit skewed with these guys.
Posted on 3/8/13 at 10:08 am to shinerfan
quote:
quote:
And there is no telling what will transpire with Jon, Danny, even Tyrion in he upcoming book(s) that might cause him to change his tune
Do I have a convert?
We were on page 3, I'm chalking that up to Thur. night drink specials.
Not sure I follow that completely. But, yeah, I think it has been set up that at least there is the potential that Tyrion play a major part in the conclusion (if that ever gets here of course). ie: third dragon rider, questions about his lineage, etc.
Posted on 3/8/13 at 10:26 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
My take on Stannis is that he did cut and dry "honorable" for so long (basically up until we meet him in CoKs) that he finally just got fed up with getting the short end of the stick going that route. It's not just about getting passed over with Storm's End with him. He talks at length in CoK about Ned Stark being named Hand of the King when it should've been him as well. And that he knew Robert treated Ned as a brother far more then him or Renly. I think despite his facade that wounded him far deeper then he lets on. He honored his Gods and they gave him a cold wife, a daughter with Greyscale, and a couple of brothers who DGAF about him. They also gave him the experience of witnessing his parents smashed upon the rocks outside of Dragonstone. I don't agree with his stances but I can understand how he got down that path knowing all of that.
I think this is why Davos is so loyal to Stannis. He knows Stannis is basically a good guy who had been pissed on by life.
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