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Message
re: Would drug legalization increase the frequency of overdoses?
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:24 pm to Sleeping Tiger
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:24 pm to Sleeping Tiger
I admitted I didn't have proof in my post. Then you called me out on not having proof. It's annoying.
I agree. The crime rates have extremely little to do with the war on drugs. It stems from the entitlement society and "Great Society" that has kept people in poverty and encouraged fatherless homes and low standards education. Much of the Drug use is simply a byproduct of this.
quote:
Since I'm a fair person, not just a stat sharer, I have to consider things like the social climate in the US vs the Netherlands. I can say that homicide rates are much lower in a place with lax drug laws, but the conditions for crime are different in the US.
I agree. The crime rates have extremely little to do with the war on drugs. It stems from the entitlement society and "Great Society" that has kept people in poverty and encouraged fatherless homes and low standards education. Much of the Drug use is simply a byproduct of this.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:26 pm to theenemy
quote:
You got addicted to drugs...its not your fault its a disease...lets use tax money to pay for rehab centers, welfare, medicaid, and free housing for you just because you screwed up your life.
I'm not for any of that, but as someone else already pointed out, we're already doing that, plus we're adding cost on top of that with incarceration and everything else that goes with drug enforcement. Local police departments are getting paid federal money for making pot bust, and it's not uncommon for them to hit the wrong house, and people wind up getting hurt and killed, over pot prohibition. It's wrong.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:27 pm to theenemy
quote:
Again, most inmates serving time have lengthy criminal histories. Most would still be in jail for just a different crime.
I've said this 20 times in this thread and everyome ignores it. They think half the inmate population is in for getting high.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:27 pm to LSURussian
quote:
It seems your major argument is if we legalize drugs then we will save money because we won't be prosecuting drug crimes.
It's not my argument. I used to be an ardent drug warrior until I started looking at the facts. We spend more money (domestically and abroad) keeping people from using than we would spend if they were allowed to use.
LINK
quote:
Jeffrey Miron, an economist at Harvard who studies drug policy closely, has suggested that legalizing all illicit drugs would produce net benefits to the United States of some $65 billion a year, mostly by cutting public spending on enforcement as well as through reduced crime and corruption.
A study by analysts at the RAND Corporation, a California research organization, suggested that if marijuana were legalized in California and the drug spilled from there to other states, Mexican drug cartels would lose about a fifth of their annual income of some $6.5 billion from illegal exports to the United States.
A growing array of Latin American presidents have asked for the United States to consider legalizing some drugs, like marijuana. Even Mr. Calderón is realizing the futility of the war against the narco-syndicates. He asked President Obama and the United States Congress last month to consider “market solutions” to reduce the cash flow to criminal groups.
WJS
quote:
President Richard Nixon declared a "war on drugs" in 1971. The expectation then was that drug trafficking in the United States could be greatly reduced in a short time through federal policing—and yet the war on drugs continues to this day. The cost has been large in terms of lives, money and the well-being of many Americans, especially the poor and less educated. By most accounts, the gains from the war have been modest at best.
The direct monetary cost to American taxpayers of the war on drugs includes spending on police, the court personnel used to try drug users and traffickers, and the guards and other resources spent on imprisoning and punishing those convicted of drug offenses. Total current spending is estimated at over $40 billion a year.
These costs don't include many other harmful effects of the war on drugs that are difficult to quantify. For example, over the past 40 years the fraction of students who have dropped out of American high schools has remained large, at about 25%. Dropout rates are not high for middle-class white children, but they are very high for black and Hispanic children living in poor neighborhoods. Many factors explain the high dropout rates, especially bad schools and weak family support. But another important factor in inner-city neighborhoods is the temptation to drop out of school in order to profit from the drug trade.
quote:
The total number of persons incarcerated in state and federal prisons in the U.S. has grown from 330,000 in 1980 to about 1.6 million today. Much of the increase in this population is directly due to the war on drugs and the severe punishment for persons convicted of drug trafficking. About 50% of the inmates in federal prisons and 20% of those in state prisons have been convicted of either selling or using drugs. The many minor drug traffickers and drug users who spend time in jail find fewer opportunities for legal employment after they get out of prison, and they develop better skills at criminal activities.
the American Conservative
quote:
But the tide may be turning. At a Republican primary debate in South Carolina last May, Ron Paul likened the freedom to use drugs to the freedom to worship according to one’s faith, a radical insight about the liberty of conscience usually heard mainly from proud proponents of psycho-pharmacological experimentation. Moderator Chris Wallace asked the Texas congressman whether using heroin was simply an “an exercise of liberty.” Paul responded with a rhetorical question: “How many people here would use heroin if it were legal?” He mocked the very idea of paternalistic prohibition: “Oh yeah, I need the government to take care of me. I don’t want to use heroin, so I need these laws.”
The audience erupted in laughter and enthusiastic applause. Many of Paul’s supporters sat in the crowd, but more important was the lack of booing from the more conventionally conservative attendees. In this Republican audience in a right-leaning state, some of the most radical arguments for heroin legalization fared surprisingly well. Even if today’s conservatives do not buy into all the reasons to end prohibition, they no longer find them as dangerous or worthy of ridicule as in years past.
George Will
quote:
But “conservatives” have often cheered the drug war started by President Nixon and given new life by President Reagan, to the detriment of the rule of law. Our Constitution was written to limit the efforts of the federal government. Drug regulation under the Constitution, is something relegated to the states. The DEA is about the last thing the founding fathers would have ever wanted for this country. Yet, many who have trumpeted the Constitution and its limits on federal power have continued to support the “War on Drugs” and other federal efforts to legislate morality.
George Will says that this needs to change.
There are many conservatives who are against the war on drugs and for good reason. This isn't my argument, it's a position I've adopted after being on the other side for years.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:29 pm to Patrick O Rly
quote:
I'm not for any of that, but as someone else already pointed out, we're already doing that, plus we're adding cost on top of that with incarceration and everything else that goes with drug enforcement. Local police departments are getting paid federal money for making pot bust, and it's not uncommon for them to hit the wrong house, and people wind up getting hurt and killed, over pot prohibition. It's wrong.
We're paying welfare for the dependents of those in jail, and we lock people up at a rate that blows away any other developed nation.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:30 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
I've said this 20 times in this thread and everyome ignores it. They think half the inmate population is in for getting high.
I addressed it.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:30 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
So your issue is with society, not the question of legalization.
Does it help society to have a large portion of drug users.
Drug use is not the root of our problems but it does compound those problems.
Its kinda like your vehicle pulling to the left because your left tire is flat...the solution is not deflating your right tire.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:31 pm to theenemy
quote:
Again, most inmates serving time have lengthy criminal histories. Most would still be in jail for just a different crime.
I would bet a good amount of the ones charged with other crimes committed them because of an environment created by drug laws.
quote:
Its not a drug problem its a propensity to break the law problem. Its a want everything for nothing problem. Its a not willing to work hard to be successful problem.
Legalizing drugs will not correct that
You're not going to be changed by a guy on the internet.
But your issue is with society, not legalization.
This post was edited on 2/2/14 at 9:33 pm
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:35 pm to theenemy
quote:
Does it help society to have a large portion of drug users.
Are you a big government liberal? Because that's how they think...
quote:
Drug use is not the root of our problems but it does compound those problems.
This should be a community standard issue, much like nudity, prostitution, gambling, drinking. Local and State
quote:
Its kinda like your vehicle pulling to the left because your left tire is flat...the solution is not deflating your right tire.
I don't think that's been suggested in this thread.
This post was edited on 2/2/14 at 9:37 pm
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:37 pm to Patrick O Rly
quote:
Local police departments are getting paid federal money for making pot bust, and it's not uncommon for them to hit the wrong house, and people wind up getting hurt and killed, over pot prohibition. It's wrong.
So you are saying its common for police to raid the wrong house and kill people?
How common do police kill people when they hit the wrong house? Daily, Weekly, Monthly?
And really I could care less about pot...I am referring more to the hard drugs meth, cocaine, heroin, etc...
The idea of legalizing them is insane.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:39 pm to theenemy
quote:
The idea of legalizing them is insane
I think decriminalizing is a good start.
It's easy enough to get prescription narcotics anyway. That's what most folks are doing these days.
This post was edited on 2/2/14 at 9:40 pm
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:41 pm to theenemy
quote:
Does it help society to have a large portion of drug users.
Do we have a large portion of drug abusers?
A quick google search yielded this:
quote:
In 2012, an estimated 23.9 million Americans aged 12 or older—or 9.2 percent of the population—had used an illicit drug or abused a psychotherapeutic medication (such as a pain reliever, stimulant, or tranquilizer) in the past month.
The % of regular drug users would be even smaller.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:45 pm to theenemy
quote:
Does it help society to have a large portion of drug users.
This is built around the idea that legalization makes a relevant increase in drug use.
quote:
Drug use is not the root of our problems but it does compound those problems.
You can say this, but you must also accept the fact that drug laws compound problems and have a role in shaping social and economic conditions.
A tiny example might be, a young kid might start selling drugs and getting involved in gang activity mainly because there is a great profit in drug dealing and there is no legal way to buy it.
This post was edited on 2/2/14 at 9:46 pm
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:45 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
The crime rates have extremely little to do with the war on drugs
This is one of the dumbest comments I have read on this board.
If you don't think that well over half of the random murders in this country have to deal with the black market violence that has been historically linked to prohibitionist policies, then, well, I just don't know.
We have locked up more people in the past thirty years due to the WOD than any other country in the world. And the trend will continue until we have an encompassing discussion of the systemic impact of Reagan's legacy (I know that Nixon began it, but RR put it into overdrive!).
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:46 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Are you a big government liberal? Because that's how they think
No, I'm a conservative.
Again, legalize drugs but cut off all gov't assistance for people who screw up their lives with dope.
If you don't want gov't in your life don't ask for gov't assistance when you screw it up.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:46 pm to Sleeping Tiger
Would Philip Seymour Hoffman be alive today if drugs were legalized or would he still be just an overdosed dead addict?
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:47 pm to LSURussian
quote:
If they just kill themselves, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, they don't just kill themselves. And that fact makes it a societal problem.
So you're against alcohol, then?
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:49 pm to CherryGarciaMan
quote:
This is one of the dumbest comments I have read on this board.
I would say most ignorant I've seen.
There is a direct correlation between prohibition and crime. Just because the rate falls doesn't mean it wouldn't fall even more without prohibition.
Russian claimed earlier that the original prohibition wasn't intended to reduce crime, and we showed him it was false. It failed.
Whether the crime rate is rising or dropping, prohibition creates a dangerous underground economy that is a substantial part of the violent crime statistics.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:49 pm to weagle99
With decrim the evidence shows that addiction levels slightly decrease.
Posted on 2/2/14 at 9:50 pm to theenemy
quote:
No, I'm a conservative.
You'd most likely feel it's a state issue, if you were.
quote:
Again, legalize drugs but cut off all gov't assistance for people who screw up their lives with dope.
I agree.
quote:
If you don't want gov't in your life don't ask for gov't assistance when you screw it up.
No argument here.
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