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Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:09 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If Europe is already getting gas from other market and won't be returning to Russia, what do they gain by blowing up the pipeline?
The obvious answer (based on plausibility) is that the West (not just Europe) wants to crush Russia and wants to prevent the possibility of Russia supplying Europe anytime in the near future. This removes that option from the chess board. This could be an important message to Russian Oligarchs and to Eastern European countries (Germany) who have shown a willingness to ignore rationality for a cheaper supply of gas.
Remember, we are where we are because Europe made the decisions they did in the face of what any reasonable person knew was risky. It's not like we are just learning who Russia is. You ignore all of that.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:10 pm to Indefatigable
quote:Perception is reality.
Which you do, simply because Russia says that it does.
Let's root that out.
The actual perception of one of the two parties to mutually controlled destruction, is REALITY.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:11 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Clearly, the cost of petro is increasing due to Russia's invasion. That's going to cost the EU and US a lot of money.
I'd suggest that the increasing cost is due to the EUs dependence on Russia AND the Russian invasion. You can't ignore the former. It's a MASSIVE piece of the puzzle.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:12 pm to moneyg
quote:
This could be an important message to Russian Oligarchs and to Eastern European countries (Germany) who have shown a willingness to ignore rationality for a cheaper supply of gas.
Again, this would be the US attacking one of its closest allies (Germany runs the EU).
I'm not saying that's impossible, but that would be about as risky of a move since Germany invaded Russia in WW2
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:12 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The actual perception of one of the two parties to mutually controlled destruction, is REALITY.
Absolutely 100% correct.
The problem is that you actually believe that is Russia’s perception. It isn’t. That’s just what they’re selling.
This post was edited on 10/10/22 at 6:13 pm
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:14 pm to SlowFlowPro
Its going to take your wife's boyfriend beating some sense into your head, isn't it?
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:15 pm to moneyg
quote:
I'd suggest that the increasing cost is due to the EUs dependence on Russia AND the Russian invasion. You can't ignore the former. It's a MASSIVE piece of the puzzle.
I think the current situation (Europe getting petro but at higher costs) shows that it would have had costs no matter what. Gas and oil are international commodities.
Germany should not have been so dependent (in the present and future) on gas directly from Russia. Trump was right. They were wrong. I've never wavered on this stance, FWIW.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
That's why I argued $40B to end it more quickly could be a wise investment.
The thought that we are closer to ending this because we decided to fund the war is ridiculously naive. And, I'm being kind. It's actually very, very dumb.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:19 pm to wutangfinancial
quote:
And China is selling it right back to Europe
Undoubtedly. And because of that Russia doesn't need a direct sale to Europe.
China is using this to bilk Europe out of tons of money, meanwhile Russia takes only a minimal hit. Even if China wasn't re-selling, they could easily suck up the excess once they finally stop closing their country at every sniff and sniffle.
The question is, how much can Europe afford?
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:20 pm to moneyg
quote:
The thought that we are closer to ending this because we decided to fund the war is ridiculously naive. And, I'm being kind. It's actually very, very dumb.
You don't think the Western and Polish aid has helped Ukraine, especially with its progress the past month or 2?
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Again, this would be the US attacking one of its closest allies (Germany runs the EU).
You are all over the place. You just tried to make the case that Europe didn't need Russia's gas and that it was a buyer's market. Now, you are calling it an attack on Germany?
Your inability to remain logically consistent in your argument is pretty telling.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:22 pm to Bard
quote:
China is using this to bilk Europe out of tons of money, meanwhile Russia takes only a minimal hit. Even if China wasn't re-selling, they could easily suck up the excess once they finally stop closing their country at every sniff and sniffle.
The question is, how much can Europe afford?
I've said this before and will say it again, there is going to come a point where secondary sanctions are enacted and we likely negotiate these with China behind closed doors so that they can extract themselves from the stink of Russia and save face when they stop supporting them.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:24 pm to moneyg
quote:
You just tried to make the case that Europe didn't need Russia's gas and that it was a buyer's market
The article said the "buyer's market" line. Not me.
Europe has supply for the winter. It was very costly.
quote:
Now, you are calling it an attack on Germany?
Bombing the pipeline (to prevent Germany from changing its stance) would be an attack on Germany
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:24 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I'm not saying that's impossible, but that would be about as risky of a move since Germany invaded Russia in WW2
Dude, hypothetically, if the US found itself aligned with, for example, England or France, and had reasonable support from a handful of other EU members do you think they hesitate? Germany literally holds as much blame in this as Russia does. It decided to dance with the Devil.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:26 pm to moneyg
quote:
Dude, hypothetically, if the US found itself aligned with, for example, England or France, and had reasonable support from a handful of other EU members do you think they hesitate?
At the possible cost of the EU and NATO breaking up?
Uh, yeah.
It isn't THAT expensive yet.
quote:
Germany literally holds as much blame in this as Russia does.
So Germany buying Russian gas is the same culpability as Russia invading a non-aggressive country that posed no threat to Russia militarily?
This post was edited on 10/10/22 at 6:27 pm
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:28 pm to Indefatigable
quote:You really need to do less "feeling", less assuming, and more reading on the topic. Take the advice. If after educating yourself about Russian perspectives, you have further questions, come on back.
The problem is that you actually believe that is Russia’s perception. It isn’t. That’s just what they’re selling.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
You don't think the Western and Polish aid has helped Ukraine, especially with its progress the past month or 2?
You continuously attempt to move the goalposts. Your original post was about a quick end to the conflict...not about whether Ukraine has been helped in this conflict. Do you intentionally do this when you don't like where the conversation is going?
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:31 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The article said the "buyer's market" line. Not me.
You posted and quoted the article.
Are you now running from the very article you posted.
Go ahead and disavow this article if you want. We are on page 8 and people are arguing with you based on the contents of this article.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 6:33 pm to NC_Tigah
Give me a reading list then.
You’re mistaken if you think I’m not educated on the topic, but I’ll happily read anything you link or name/reference.
You’re mistaken if you think I’m not educated on the topic, but I’ll happily read anything you link or name/reference.
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