re: Tanks

I was a 19Killer (19K) for over 20 years of my life on the M1A1 Heavy Common, M1A2 and the M1A2 SEP. I've been all 4 duty positions loader, driver, gunner and was a Tank Commander for 14 years starting as a SSG then as a Platoon Sergeant SFC before becoming a 1SG and then you aren't one tank crew anymore.

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US Army 19K training is ten weeks after basic

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Wrong. Tankers and other combat MOSs don't go to Basic Training, they go to One Station Unit Training (basic and AIT combined). So you can be "fully trained" in just 15 weeks total.

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Leopards, Challengers, and Abrams, except at the bleeding edge, are not all that different from each other. 

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They look similar and fire big bullets. That's where the similarly ends. The engine/transmission/hydraulics are totally different. The fire control systems and stabilization and ability to calculate a ballistic solution to account for can't, wind speed, wind direction, etc are totally different. I was a Master Gunner and knew everything about the capability of the fire control system.

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There is a fueling issue (most Euro armor seems to run on diesel, whereas certain models of the M1 run on multiple fuels

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There's zero problem with the Abrams when it comes to fuel. We use JP-8 but it will burn diesel, gas...damn near anything on this planet that combusts.

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the complication isn't in operation, but in maintenance and fuel

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Maintenance is a problem but not fuel.

Maintenance is the hard part. It's a 72 ton beast moving around at speeds up to around 40 mph and firing 120mm depleted uranium sabot rounds. It takes a lot if work to keep them operational. And it's a 4 man job.

Mechanics don't touch your tank unless it's red-lined. The only time you see hull mechanics is when they're in a M88 to pull the power pack (engine/transmission/main hydraulic pump). Turret mechanics are even worse. They look at anything and their answer is "I can't help you. Thats 3rd shop."

I said I wasn't a tanker :). I pulled the 10 weeks off of Army.mil, but the point is similar, you roll in not being able to change your own underwear without help, and you're "sort of competent" when you roll out of Knox. I didn't do OSUT, but I thought it would make the point with the Rant which has trouble reading more than two sentences without bitching how long the thread was.

Same for the rest of my post re: Challengers/Leopards, etc. The Ukranians on the ground know -0- (especially compared to a 19K like you) about any of them, so they're equally dumb to all three systems (for the most part.)

On another note, I really hope we're sending them older stock, since there *will* be equipment that gets captured or recovered by the Russians.

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but it was rare to get an opportunity to train as an armor/ mechanized infantry team

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I remember some National Guard 19K during the Clinton years told us they didn't have money for fuel, so they "walked" 2x4s in the shape of an Abrams around terrain to simulate defilade, etc. Could have been total bullshite, but there was probably some scrap of truth to it.

With what we've seen drones do in Syria, and in Ukraine, vehicles (including armor) seem like more of a deathtrap than I ever considered them. When you have two dudes shooting each other in a trench so close they could have grabbed each other's rifles, a vehicle just seems like a target and a logistical and (to his point) training nightmare.

To be fair, the "tanks" we are sending over aren't really very good at being tanks. Guys used the hell outta them in Iraq but they're jack of all trades, master of none.

This just in: winter/spring offensives with vehicles in SE Europe get bogged down in mud.

Also, trouble in the middle east.

Who knows whether or not crews haven't already been trained? The months of training for Patriots had already occurred.

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To be fair, the "tanks" we are sending over aren't really very good at being tanks. Guys used the hell outta them in Iraq but they're jack of all trades, master of none.

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This. The Abrams is the last thing Russians are scared of. It's a 140,000 pound coffin. The Leopards are a legitimate concern. Comparatively speaking, the M1A2 Abrams is an angry tortoise.

Need to send good ones.

Tanks, like any other weapon are only as good as the person/team using them. And on the tactics used to employ them

Tanks are limited in urban combat. They should be used in conjunction to mechanized infantry working in conjunction

Working as a team with recon, infantry, other tanks/iFVs is required to enhance the force

Air support/superiority is also key.

Abrams has a state if the art fire control/targeting/barrel stabilization system. The electronics on board the abrams is also state of the art (domestic version) and can see the whole battlefield with inputs of other tanks/IFV/other recon.

That’s what is in question. How long and will the Ukrainian tankers learn proper utilization. Or will they charge head long down a road into artillery, or entrenched infantry, without intel/support…..

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These keyboard warriors think

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Why did you bring jjdoc into this? And for the record, he doesn’t think, he just regurgitates....