Posted by
Message
Powerman
LSU Fan
Virginia
Member since Jan 2004
134985 posts

Some thoughts on post secondary education
The topic of student loan forgiveness and college education for all are topics that won't go away albeit they don't get a lot of media coverage.

IMO the country dodged a large self inflicted wound by being at least smart enough to not give Bernie Sanders a legitimate shot at the White House.

"Free" college education is a terrible idea for our country.

Here are some things that I believe to be indisputable facts. If you believe that I am wrong feel free to counter.

1. The value of a college education is being diluted over time.

2. The cost of a college education is increasing (this one really can't be disputed) at a rate that far surpasses other cost increases

3. If you agree with points 1 and 2 you might come to another conclusion: In the near future going to college will likely be a very poor financial decision on a personal level.

Now, with all that being said, there will still be some degree choices that make sense because some professions have the degree requirement as a barrier to entry. Most of us are familiar with at least a few of these. Doctors, attorneys, accountants, engineers, architects and other medical related professions to be certain.

There are other professions that require some form of licensing and schooling but not a full 4 year college program. I'm sure most are familiar with some of those as well.

Considering all of the above, I do not believe we as a society have the responsibility to forgive student loan debts or to provide "free" college education to anyone in the future. I have no major issue with merit and need based financial scholarships and aid as they currently exist. My issue with the current system is government backed student loans. That does not work out to the benefit of prospective college students in my opinion. It artificially inflates the cost of tuition and puts the debtors into what would be considered an illegal contract if it were privately funded.

For brevity sake I'll stop here and elaborate more on some other thoughts after people respond.


Powerman
LSU Fan
Virginia
Member since Jan 2004
134985 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
Another thought on the matter of student loan debt is the following and probably worth discussing on its own:

The average student loan debt per individual is less than the cost of a new car. If your college education is worth less than that to you, then I don't care nor do I feel the obligation to chip in. "Free college education" is essentially asking all tax payers in our society to subsidize college for middle and upper middle class families.

While I believe society has an obligation to give those with lesser financial means an opportunity to pursue a higher education (and our society currently does that) I do not believe we need to be ponying up the costs for families that are in the top 5% of earners in the country. "Free college tuition" would certainly involve doing plenty of that.


kingbob
LSU Fan
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
44023 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
Students get free tuition in socialist countries because they don't get to choose whether they go to college or what major they're allowed to choose. They are told where to go and what to study. Thus, their percentage of "college graduates" is much lower and their graduation rates much higher. They get to go for free in exchange for their freedom. Our people want to have their cake and eat it too. They don't understand that when one makes something "free", it increases demand until shortages occur. Without the profit motivation, there is zero reason to expand supply unless the government is covering the losses, which simply incentivizes ballooning costs since someone else is paying. This inevitably leads to shortages, which means quotas.


TBoy
Notre Dame Fan
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
8994 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

Students get free tuition in socialist countries because they don't get to choose whether they go to college or what major they're allowed to choose.


Perhaps you don't have any clue what you are talking about, perhaps you do but you are simply promoting some propaganda. But countries with free or nearly free college tuition include Norway, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Sweden, Germany, Slovenia, Italy and France. None of those are socialist countries and none of those assign people to their fields of study.


kingbob
LSU Fan
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
44023 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

Perhaps you don't have any clue what you are talking about, perhaps you do but you are simply promoting some propaganda. But countries with free or nearly free college tuition include Norway, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Sweden, Germany, Slovenia, Italy and France. None of those are socialist countries and none of those assign people to their fields of study.


They absolutely do start assigning their students into tracks starting in middle school and high school. If they don't score high enough, they're put into the vo-tec track verses the university track. They segregate them into different disciplines as well. You're absolutely wrong.


Rougarou13
LSU Fan
Jackson MS
Member since Feb 2015
4590 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
They see free and jump on it like it was a sale at Hot Topic.

See avatar.


Powerman
LSU Fan
Virginia
Member since Jan 2004
134985 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
Certainly free or subsidized education will be utilized by all

But policy wise they tend to gravitate to more "free shit"


Geauxgurt
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2013
5315 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
Student loan debt was a choice and a lack of responsibility is not something the rest of society should cover. Furthermore, if it went down and was given, what is done for the people that did in fact pay off their loans responsibly?

Much like the mortgage industry, the student loan industry doesn’t give shite about being responsible because they know the government will bail them out.

Also, a large reason that the costs of college have skyrocketed is exactly he fact that student loans are so easy to get and they know morons will pay it.

Until that is controlled, nothing will change. Debt forgiveness for bad financial decisions should come with severe consequences. It should be treated like bankruptcy and cost the individual any access to credit for at least a ten years for example.



AbuTheMonkey
Notre Dame Fan
Chicago, IL
Member since May 2014
5248 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

Perhaps you don't have any clue what you are talking about, perhaps you do but you are simply promoting some propaganda. But countries with free or nearly free college tuition include Norway, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Sweden, Germany, Slovenia, Italy and France. None of those are socialist countries and none of those assign people to their fields of study.


They start tracting kids as early as 13 years old in preparation for universities. They obviously don't demand that you study in certain fields, but if you aren't accepted into a Gymnasium in Germany, you're basically fricked if you want to go to a university.

In addition to that, none of those places with the exception of maybe France would I consider to be a top tier university system. The American and British university systems are generally far superior to those.

Oh, and some of those systems are starting to charge fees in addition to only selecting kids from certain tracts. They certainly see the writing on the wall.
This post was edited on 3/3 at 12:41 pm


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
32
Powerman
LSU Fan
Virginia
Member since Jan 2004
134985 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

Student loan debt was a choice and a lack of responsibility is not something the rest of society should cover. Furthermore, if it went down and was given, what is done for the people that did in fact pay off their loans responsibly?

And like I said earlier most people have student loan debt loads that are less than the cost of a new car

People either pay for those cash or pay them off within 3-7 years if they finance

If your choice of college education was a wise one the lifetime financial benefits would FAR outweigh the cost of a new car and the idea that the rest of society owes them anything either is just absurd.


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
00
AbuTheMonkey
Notre Dame Fan
Chicago, IL
Member since May 2014
5248 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

Powerman


You'd really probably solve a lot of these issues if we enabled lenders to assess true interest rates to prospective students instead of everyone getting 6 - 8% up to a certain level like it is now.


Powerman
LSU Fan
Virginia
Member since Jan 2004
134985 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:


You'd really probably solve a lot of these issues if we enabled lenders to assess true interest rates to prospective students instead of everyone getting 6 - 8% up to a certain level like it is now.


If they treated these transactions with the proper risk assessment that any private lending entity would, it would certainly eliminate some problems.

The inability to default on these loans is ludicrously stupid and I can't imagine why anyone would ever sign up for them


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
00
MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
17368 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
It's an indictment on the collegiate system that graduates of universities remain incapable of seeing the negative impacts and moral hazard of state subsidized education at any level. Does one need more evidence than that to decide whether to send their children into these institutions for 4 years of partying and marxist indoctrination?

Even careers that require degrees are accessible to those who don't wish to frick around with student loans or traditional universities. I suspect that as time goes on, more and more production will come from those who choose to bypass the utter waste that college has come to represent.



Replies (0)
Replies (0)
02
MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
17368 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

You'd really probably solve a lot of these issues if we enabled lenders to assess true interest rates to prospective students instead of everyone getting 6 - 8% up to a certain level like it is now.



Yep


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
00
SquatchDawg
Georgia Fan
Cohutta Wilderness
Member since Sep 2012
6897 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
I agree with your premise. A few points.

First of all. Nothing is FREE. Teachers and colleges will still be paid through some form or another - in this case by a third party.

Secondly, this should be a case study in the terrible impact of “good intentions”. Traditionally colleges had to compete for students as this was an out of pocket expense. To compete they had to provide something of value equaling or exceeding the input cost. Ie tuition. Colleges with better programs could charge more...most state colleges had to keep tuition affordable and teach marketable skills to justify the cost.

Once the govt got involved providing free tuition with lotto money...and subsidized loans to anyone with a pulse...colleges figured out quickly that the name of the game was to get as many students in the seats as possible with whatever major they could conceive and keep them there with an average high enough to keep the revenue flowing. Lenders didn’t care because they were not on the hook for defaults. The barrier to entry had been eliminated and the so was the need to provide something of value....because it was being paid with somebody else’s money and everyone wanted in. Students figured out too that as long as they stayed in school the money kept flowing and the party didn’t stop. The tuition kept going higher and higher because it was all being subsidized by the govt or loans.

If everyone has a degree ... by definition it’s not a scarce commodity and therefore worth less. There was a time when you could work your way through college too...but now if you can’t get a scholarship you have to go in debt. It’s an inflationary bubble that will someday burst.

Another victim of govt interference, greed and unlimited credit through a corrupt banking system.


Beessnax
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2015
3028 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:


"Free" college education is a terrible idea for our country.


Both of my kids have/will benefit from TOPS here in Louisiana. It has been very good for them, one graduates this semester with no debt and enough in his 529 to get his master's.

That said, I agree with you. All that has happened with TOPS is that the schools have exponentially jacked up their fees, which isn't covered by TOPS. They then give merit based scholarships for the fees to remain competitive with other universities. So it has become nothing more than a shell game with taxpayer money.

Universities would be the only ones who would benefit if we allows this at a national level. Kids who didn't have savings would still have to take out loans to cover the cost of the fees.


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
00
el Gaucho
Southern Fan
bawcomville
Member since Dec 2010
36360 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

The average student loan debt per individual is less than the cost of a new car. If your college education is worth less than that to you, then I don't care nor do I feel the obligation to chip in.

A new car? who wants that?

I was welding on the pipeline and by 19 I had a new f250 and fifth wheel fully paid off

While you college betas are staring at a cubicle wall in Alexandria I'm building 200 gauge double wall pipe in scenic standing rock, South Dakota


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
11
NIH
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Aug 2008
87329 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
The last thought that crosses my mind when looking at the putrid state of job websites is "hey, we need MORE people with college degrees"


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
00
crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
21952 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

If everyone has a degree ... by definition it’s not a scarce commodity and therefore worth less


But not everyone has a degree. 70% of Americans do not have a degree. While I agree the percentage should be lower, I'd also love it if we divorced ourselves from tying jobs to having a degree or not. Without that link, colleges could return to doing their job, which is to give students a liberal education. When I taught, I couldn't fail kids, as the department mandated they get an incomplete in the class until they passed. The department also sided with kids in plagiarism cases, and in lots of disciplinary situations where the kids were in the wrong. The teachers who I'm friends with still have to deal with this at various universities, although at different levels. One university I worked at also made no effort to separate kids by education level when they entered, meaning I would have to deal with freshman with wide degrees of skills. Some were so advanced that the class was a waste of time. Some were so behind that I had to spend lots of time with them just to catch them up. One poor kid, a football player, didn't know what punctuation was when he entered. I spent 6 weeks with him during office hours teaching him how to enunciate and the basics of grammar. I spent the rest of the semester trying to get him to apply those principles, only for him to plagiarize his last paper, and for the department to ask me to pass him anyway. Beyond being utterly demoralizing, I'd argue that having a monetary motive tied to students can be damaging to the students themselves in really terrible ways.

This post was edited on 3/4 at 4:35 pm


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
11
TerryDawg03
Georgia Fan
The Deep South
Member since Dec 2012
6484 posts

re: Some thoughts on post secondary education
quote:

IMO the country dodged a large self inflicted wound by being at least smart enough to not give Bernie Sanders a legitimate shot at the White House.


Thank HRC and the DNC. They made sure he never had a chance. Still don’t understand how Democrats are willing to turn a blind eye to being completely owned by corruption.

College degrees should be sought for areas that will provide good opportunity, and trade education should be considered.

If student loans were underwritten by real lenders instead of the current nonsense, they’d underwrite based on ability to repay and wouldn’t make loans for degrees of nonsense that will never provide the graduate with a job.


Replies (0)
Replies (0)
00
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 2next pagelast page

Back to top

logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram