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Message
re: Russia and NATO
Posted on 10/4/22 at 12:15 pm to JackieTreehorn
Posted on 10/4/22 at 12:15 pm to JackieTreehorn
quote:
The US and NATO lied (shocker) to Russia so they shouldn't be surprised.
Another lie by the US was that we would protect Ukraine if they gave up their (former Soviet) nukes.
They agreed and we took possession of them. I bet the Ukrainians wish they had never agreed to give them up. Doubt Putin would have invaded a nuclear power.
0
Posted on 10/4/22 at 12:22 pm to TigerAttorney
quote:
Can someone explain to me like I’m 5 because I’m not understanding.
When the USSR collapsed, Ukraine had a bunch of nukes. America, UK, Russia and much of Europe promised to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty if they gave up their nuclear arms.
Ukraine gave up its nukes, though right now I bet they wished they hadn't.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 3:29 pm to Indefatigable
I tend to agree with a lot of what you are saying but the below.
If they wanted the land back they could have "taken" it long ago. Crimea was not invaded by Russia. The people of Crimea were unhappy with their new "Autonomous Republic" (also backed by the USA) & overwhelmingly voted to be annexed back into Russia.
I think what you are saying is part of what we are seeing now, but this has been bubbling for years and it mainly has everything to do with the good ole US of A, and in particular Joe Biden back to when he became VP.
The west, mainly the US via the CIA & various NGOs, have been trying to gain unfettered influence in Ukraine going back to 2004 when we backed presidential candidate Viktor Yuschenko (whose wife served in the White House) against Russian backed Viktor Yanukovich. The votes were split geographically almost perfectly to what Russia has recently claimed. The Eastern portion of Ukraine overwhelmingly supported Yanukovich while the west supported Yuschenko. Guess who won??
Yuschenko won by very narrow margins with many widely claiming *gasp* "western influenced election fraud".
Leading up to the election, there were mass organized violent protests of Yanukovich, later called the Orange Revolution. Think BLM & Antifa riots of a few years back. Actually, identical to that. And it is widely believed that the Orange Revolution was propagated by the US, CIA, NGOs in conjunction with local Ukrainian radical militia groups. Any of this sound familiar???
Fast forward to 2010, Yuschenko's popularity declining gave an opportunity for Russian backed Yanukovich to seize the presidential office. In 2013, Putin & Yuschenko were in negotiations with the EU that were beginning to lean very much in favor of the EU. Those negotiations were "paused" at the direction of Vlad & Viktor & that is where things got very interesting again shortly after.
Insert Joe Biden, appointed by President BHO as special US emissary to Ukraine. All of a sudden, you guessed it. Another planned color revolution in Kiev, with all the same actors & signs as the one in 2004.. Only this one was much more violent & had the goal of not winning an election for a US backed candidate, but to oust a sitting president. There is even a recorded phone conversation between the US Ambassador Geoff Pyatt & Victoria Nuland (name sound familiar?) discussing as much. All because the "negotiations" with the EU went south. They were pissed the EU couldn't do their bidding by getting the puck past the goalie by getting Vlad/Viktor to agree to their terms which were ridiculously in favor of the west. Nuland & Pyatt even verbally call out their coup plan's support of then VP, Joe Biden. Oh yeah, remind me again when Hunter was placed on the board of Burisma. Hmmm.
A successful coup was underway in Feb 2014 and ultimately Yuschenko & his family were forced to flee Ukraine, to Russia where they sought refuge.
The key words that we are hearing now & has been the goal all along. And those are, "REGIME CHANGE IN RUSSIA".
Not so Simply put. TLDR
1. Ukraine has long since been a fricked up place - Ripe for graft & corruption to the highest bidder. I do not view them as victims in this scenario. Nor do I view Putin/Russia as the "good guys".
(obviously I sympathize with the civilian casualties, that is not what I am saying)
2. The USA/CIA has been actively interfering in Ukrainian politics for quite some time now & multiple US politicians at the highest of levels have been participating in above mentioned graft & corruption.
3. Zelensky was/is a CIA install that we are now poised to throw to the wolves.
4. Russia is not fighting simply because of NATO interference or border encroachment. That is the excuse they want us to hear. I'd be willing to bet, had Scott Pelley sat down with Vladimir Putin instead of Zelensky's wife this past Sunday we would have heard an interesting side of the story. But the gov't controlled mainstream media will not allow that to happen.
5. There is zero chance Ukraine could withstand an all out assault from the full might of the Russian military without active US intervention. Both Zelensky & Putin know this. Which currently puts both the USA & Russia in very precarious shite-or-get-off the pot scenarios. Which is very frightening considering the ramifications.
6. Our current administration is functionally retarded from top to bottom & is royally fricking up an already fricked up situation.
7. As bad as our media wants to paint this as black & white, Russia bad - USA & Ukraine good. It is not and never will be. It is much more complicated, but the above is just a snapshot of events that led to where we are today & it has very little to do with NATO.
quote:
They. Want. The. Land. Back.
If they wanted the land back they could have "taken" it long ago. Crimea was not invaded by Russia. The people of Crimea were unhappy with their new "Autonomous Republic" (also backed by the USA) & overwhelmingly voted to be annexed back into Russia.
I think what you are saying is part of what we are seeing now, but this has been bubbling for years and it mainly has everything to do with the good ole US of A, and in particular Joe Biden back to when he became VP.
The west, mainly the US via the CIA & various NGOs, have been trying to gain unfettered influence in Ukraine going back to 2004 when we backed presidential candidate Viktor Yuschenko (whose wife served in the White House) against Russian backed Viktor Yanukovich. The votes were split geographically almost perfectly to what Russia has recently claimed. The Eastern portion of Ukraine overwhelmingly supported Yanukovich while the west supported Yuschenko. Guess who won??
Yuschenko won by very narrow margins with many widely claiming *gasp* "western influenced election fraud".
Leading up to the election, there were mass organized violent protests of Yanukovich, later called the Orange Revolution. Think BLM & Antifa riots of a few years back. Actually, identical to that. And it is widely believed that the Orange Revolution was propagated by the US, CIA, NGOs in conjunction with local Ukrainian radical militia groups. Any of this sound familiar???
Fast forward to 2010, Yuschenko's popularity declining gave an opportunity for Russian backed Yanukovich to seize the presidential office. In 2013, Putin & Yuschenko were in negotiations with the EU that were beginning to lean very much in favor of the EU. Those negotiations were "paused" at the direction of Vlad & Viktor & that is where things got very interesting again shortly after.
Insert Joe Biden, appointed by President BHO as special US emissary to Ukraine. All of a sudden, you guessed it. Another planned color revolution in Kiev, with all the same actors & signs as the one in 2004.. Only this one was much more violent & had the goal of not winning an election for a US backed candidate, but to oust a sitting president. There is even a recorded phone conversation between the US Ambassador Geoff Pyatt & Victoria Nuland (name sound familiar?) discussing as much. All because the "negotiations" with the EU went south. They were pissed the EU couldn't do their bidding by getting the puck past the goalie by getting Vlad/Viktor to agree to their terms which were ridiculously in favor of the west. Nuland & Pyatt even verbally call out their coup plan's support of then VP, Joe Biden. Oh yeah, remind me again when Hunter was placed on the board of Burisma. Hmmm.
A successful coup was underway in Feb 2014 and ultimately Yuschenko & his family were forced to flee Ukraine, to Russia where they sought refuge.
The key words that we are hearing now & has been the goal all along. And those are, "REGIME CHANGE IN RUSSIA".
Not so Simply put. TLDR
1. Ukraine has long since been a fricked up place - Ripe for graft & corruption to the highest bidder. I do not view them as victims in this scenario. Nor do I view Putin/Russia as the "good guys".
(obviously I sympathize with the civilian casualties, that is not what I am saying)
2. The USA/CIA has been actively interfering in Ukrainian politics for quite some time now & multiple US politicians at the highest of levels have been participating in above mentioned graft & corruption.
3. Zelensky was/is a CIA install that we are now poised to throw to the wolves.
4. Russia is not fighting simply because of NATO interference or border encroachment. That is the excuse they want us to hear. I'd be willing to bet, had Scott Pelley sat down with Vladimir Putin instead of Zelensky's wife this past Sunday we would have heard an interesting side of the story. But the gov't controlled mainstream media will not allow that to happen.
5. There is zero chance Ukraine could withstand an all out assault from the full might of the Russian military without active US intervention. Both Zelensky & Putin know this. Which currently puts both the USA & Russia in very precarious shite-or-get-off the pot scenarios. Which is very frightening considering the ramifications.
6. Our current administration is functionally retarded from top to bottom & is royally fricking up an already fricked up situation.
7. As bad as our media wants to paint this as black & white, Russia bad - USA & Ukraine good. It is not and never will be. It is much more complicated, but the above is just a snapshot of events that led to where we are today & it has very little to do with NATO.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 4:23 pm to TigerAttorney
quote:
Moscow, on the other hand, is like 250 miles from the border of Ukraine. So yea I’d assume Putin is a little concerned that Ukraine is flirting with joining NATO.
Ukraine to Moscow is 510 miles.
Is that too close for comfort?
What about Lithuania? It’s 545 miles from Moscow. Should we hand it over to Putin?
Estonia is also about the same difference. Should we give Putin Estonia too?
Poland is about 750 miles away, is that safe? Russia took half of Poland years ago and murdered thousands. Do they need Poland too?
Exactly where should we draw the line?
Posted on 10/4/22 at 4:34 pm to mrservon
quote:
7. As bad as our media wants to paint this as black & white, Russia bad - USA & Ukraine good. It is not and never will be. It is much more complicated, but the above is just a snapshot of events that led to where we are today & it has very little to do with NATO.
As hard as you boys try to make it complicated, the facts are clear.
Russia agreed to let Ukraine become a sovereign nation and also agreed to help guarantee their sovereignty.
Since that time they have aided rebellions inside Ukraine, sent soldiers in to fight in the Donbas, taken over Crimea and now have launched a broad invasion.
They have broken their promises numerous times and all because they want Ukraine and a return to their glory days.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 4:35 pm to doubleb
Letting Ukraine into NATO now is an absolute fricking disaster that simply cannot be considered. Literally WW3
Posted on 10/4/22 at 4:51 pm to doubleb
quote:350 miles
Ukraine to Moscow is 510 miles.
quote:Lithuania does not share a border with Russia. History would inform you as to why Latvia or Estonia are less important than Ukraine.
What about Lithuania?
Posted on 10/4/22 at 5:07 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Lithuania does not share a border with Russia. History would inform you as to why Latvia or Estonia are less important than Ukraine.
So distance doesn’t matter just borders.
So if Moscow keeps annexing Oblasts and eventually all of Ukraine and borders touch then that would be bad but not before?
I disagree. In the missile age distance matters.
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 5:19 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 5:28 pm to doubleb
Regarding Russia wanting that little bit of land back. Here is a map of the largest country on Earth, which is made up of 22 separate, (but equal), "Republics".
Can you point out where the Donbas is?
Can you point out where the Donbas is?
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 5:30 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 6:01 pm to doubleb
quote:
So distance doesn’t matter
That is your response to making a 40% error in distance????
quote:
In the missile age distance matters.
Okay????
Posted on 10/4/22 at 6:40 pm to doubleb
They did not “take over” Crimea like you are implying.
The people of Crimea wanted to be under Russian governance and voted to do so as opposed to being under a US puppet regime. They saw the writing on the wall.
And you are also still wrong. It is extremely complicated and many events unfolded & took place that put us to where we are now with the Ukraine/Russia debacle.
And don’t think for one second that Ukraine didn’t break promises that led to Russia not keeping theirs with respect to their sovereignty. There aren’t any good guys any way you chop it up. Thus, it is a lot more complicated that you would like to believe.
The people of Crimea wanted to be under Russian governance and voted to do so as opposed to being under a US puppet regime. They saw the writing on the wall.
And you are also still wrong. It is extremely complicated and many events unfolded & took place that put us to where we are now with the Ukraine/Russia debacle.
And don’t think for one second that Ukraine didn’t break promises that led to Russia not keeping theirs with respect to their sovereignty. There aren’t any good guys any way you chop it up. Thus, it is a lot more complicated that you would like to believe.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 7:42 pm to mrservon
quote:
It is extremely complicated and many events unfolded & took place that put us to where we are now with the Ukraine/Russia debacle.
Yes, there was a lot going on during that time. Here is a decent summary of everything that happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#:~:text=In%20February%20and%20March%202014,the%20wider%20Russo%2DUkrainian%20War.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 8:04 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Distance Between Moscow To Ukraine Is 822 Kms Origin Moscow Destination Ukraine Distance 822 Kms Travel Time 6 Hours 50 Minutes
quote:
https://convertsumo.com › 822-kilometers-to-miles822 kilometers to miles. Convert 822 kilometers to miles. Kilometers to Miles formula: [Mi] = Km * 0.6213. The final formula to convert 822 Km to Mi is: [Mi] = 822 * 0.6213 = 510.71. The kilometer, which is internationally...
I posted road distance, sorry.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 8:10 pm to mrservon
quote:
Crimea's status is disputed. In 2014, Crimea saw intense demonstrations[33] against the removal of the Russia-leaning Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych in Kyiv. Protests culminated in pro-Russian forces occupying strategic points in Crimea[34] and the Republic of Crimea declared independence from Ukraine following an internationally disputed referendum supporting reunification.[35] Russia then formally annexed Crimea, although most countries recognize Crimea as part of Ukraine.[36]
[quote]They did not “take over” Crimea like you are implying. The people of Crimea wanted to be under Russian governance and voted to do so as opposed to being under a US puppet regime. They saw the writing on the wall. [/quote
Russia sent in troops. They rigged an election. It’s well documented.
You keep saying there are no good guys here, but we know Russia is the worst.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 8:28 pm to doubleb
When I worked in Crimea the Russian Crimeans about 65% of the population were more nationalistic than Russians in Moscow or any other Russian city I have ever been to. The few Ukrainians were apathetic, and the Crimean Tatar minority were they only ones who were anti-Russian, but they were so few they generally tried to not show themselves.
Ukraine was better off without them, and they would have been better off without the Eastern Ukrainian oblasts.
But the Ukrainian Nationalists and their American enablers were stubborn.
Ukraine was better off without them, and they would have been better off without the Eastern Ukrainian oblasts.
But the Ukrainian Nationalists and their American enablers were stubborn.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 9:20 pm to LookSquirrel
quote:
Regarding Russia wanting that little bit of land back. Here is a map of the largest country on Earth, which is made up of 22 separate, (but equal), "Republics".
Now do population.
Posted on 10/6/22 at 8:51 am to TigerAttorney
Came across this Opinion article dissecting the causes for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Korea TImes - Joseph Nye Opinion
//
What caused Russia's war in Ukraine?
While many in the West see a war of choice by Russian President Vladimir Putin, he says that NATO's 2008 decision in favor of eventual Ukrainian membership brought an existential threat to Russia's borders, and still others trace the conflict back to the Cold War's end and the failure of the West to support Russia adequately after the collapse of the Soviet Union. How can we discern the origins of a war that may last for years?
Putin lamented the breakup of the Soviet Union, which he had served as a KGB officer, and, owing to Ukraine and Russia's close cultural affinities, he considered Ukraine a phony state. Moreover, Ukraine had been ungrateful, offending Russia with its 2014 Maidan uprising, which removed a pro-Russian government, and its deepening of trade relations with the European Union.
Putin wants to restore what he calls the "Russian world," and, as he has approached the age of 70, he has been thinking about his legacy. Earlier leaders, like Peter the Great, had expanded Russian power in their own time. Given the weakness of the Western sanctions that followed Russia's invasion of Ukraine and annexation of the Crimean Peninsula in 2014, Putin seems to have asked himself: Why not go further?
The prospect of NATO enlargement was a lesser intermediate cause. While the West did create a NATO-Russia Council through which Russian military officers could attend some NATO meetings, Russia expected more from the relationship.
Korea TImes - Joseph Nye Opinion
//
What caused Russia's war in Ukraine?
While many in the West see a war of choice by Russian President Vladimir Putin, he says that NATO's 2008 decision in favor of eventual Ukrainian membership brought an existential threat to Russia's borders, and still others trace the conflict back to the Cold War's end and the failure of the West to support Russia adequately after the collapse of the Soviet Union. How can we discern the origins of a war that may last for years?
Putin lamented the breakup of the Soviet Union, which he had served as a KGB officer, and, owing to Ukraine and Russia's close cultural affinities, he considered Ukraine a phony state. Moreover, Ukraine had been ungrateful, offending Russia with its 2014 Maidan uprising, which removed a pro-Russian government, and its deepening of trade relations with the European Union.
Putin wants to restore what he calls the "Russian world," and, as he has approached the age of 70, he has been thinking about his legacy. Earlier leaders, like Peter the Great, had expanded Russian power in their own time. Given the weakness of the Western sanctions that followed Russia's invasion of Ukraine and annexation of the Crimean Peninsula in 2014, Putin seems to have asked himself: Why not go further?
The prospect of NATO enlargement was a lesser intermediate cause. While the West did create a NATO-Russia Council through which Russian military officers could attend some NATO meetings, Russia expected more from the relationship.
Posted on 10/6/22 at 9:34 am to RonLaFlamme
Interesting observation of North Korea's latest missile test.
CNN
quote:
Tuesday’s missile flew a distance of about 4,600 kilometers (2,858 miles), with an altitude of some 1,000 kilometers (621 miles) and a top speed reaching Mach 17 – meaning 17 times the speed of sound, according to Japanese officials.
CNN
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