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obstruction w/o underlying crime
Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:04 pm
Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:04 pm
I don't recall this being discussed before.
I don't understand how people are being allowed to advance this idea. If you can obstruct w/o an underlying crime, that means you have to, at least, remain silent while your name is dragged through the mud, if not actively participate in you being indicted. If you are being accused of a crime, you should be able to fight for your innocence. It's essentially guilty until proven innocent which is contrary to the foundation of us justice.
The reason why I bring this up is because Barr is now being accused of obstruction since it is thought that he is preventing lawmakers from getting to the obstruction section of the report. This is ludicrous. It's obstruction of obstruction to a crime that didn't happen. Moreover, Barr is legally bound to not release an unredacted copy of the report and Mueller had no business writing an obstruction section to his report in the first place.
I don't understand how people are being allowed to advance this idea. If you can obstruct w/o an underlying crime, that means you have to, at least, remain silent while your name is dragged through the mud, if not actively participate in you being indicted. If you are being accused of a crime, you should be able to fight for your innocence. It's essentially guilty until proven innocent which is contrary to the foundation of us justice.
The reason why I bring this up is because Barr is now being accused of obstruction since it is thought that he is preventing lawmakers from getting to the obstruction section of the report. This is ludicrous. It's obstruction of obstruction to a crime that didn't happen. Moreover, Barr is legally bound to not release an unredacted copy of the report and Mueller had no business writing an obstruction section to his report in the first place.
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Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:06 pm to bfniii
It can still happen, as an underlying crime not an element of obstruction. However, it is EXTREMELY hard to prove corrupt intent without an underlying crime. Corrupt intent is an element of the crime.
This post was edited on 5/12/19 at 5:08 pm
Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:06 pm to bfniii
i totally agree.
Their defense is that he "obstructed an investigation" that was looking in to potential crimes(by DJT or others).
Democrats are trash
Their defense is that he "obstructed an investigation" that was looking in to potential crimes(by DJT or others).
Democrats are trash
Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:08 pm to bfniii
I made this point about a month ago. The response was that I can happen. So I asked about it in regards to trump. Which was the met with it can happen. No evidence of it happening with trump. Just the possibility of it. They are desperate.
Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:11 pm to bfniii
quote:
It's essentially guilty until proven innocent which is contrary to the foundation of us justice.
Dems are still on the "Kavanaugh Treatment" i.e.: guilty until proven innocent. Thus the Mueller Dossier stating they have no evidence of crimes but can't EXONERATE the president. Well no shite, you're not SUPPOSED to exonerate.
Dems are losing their minds and have NO sense of the law anymore. It's downright scary that Repubs let them get away with it. They are snakes too.
Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:21 pm to bfniii
First of all, there is a difference between
1) obstructing an honest/non-politically motivated investigation of a single crime when the person is innocent, and
2) “obstructing” (resisting) a politically motivated and potentially corrupt, open-ended investigation/witch hunt
Having said that, yes, a person can very easily be guilty of obstruction of an investigation even if they are innocent and there was no actual crime.
Here’s an example: Suppose a CFO of a company is accused and investigated for misappropriation and embezzlement, and that the truth is that the money was not misappropriated and he did not embezzle, but the paperwork to prove it is missing. Now suppose the CFO asked someone to lie for him to cover for him in some way, or that he falsified a document (back dated it or something) to cover for himself. That would examples of obstruction.
1) obstructing an honest/non-politically motivated investigation of a single crime when the person is innocent, and
2) “obstructing” (resisting) a politically motivated and potentially corrupt, open-ended investigation/witch hunt
Having said that, yes, a person can very easily be guilty of obstruction of an investigation even if they are innocent and there was no actual crime.
Here’s an example: Suppose a CFO of a company is accused and investigated for misappropriation and embezzlement, and that the truth is that the money was not misappropriated and he did not embezzle, but the paperwork to prove it is missing. Now suppose the CFO asked someone to lie for him to cover for him in some way, or that he falsified a document (back dated it or something) to cover for himself. That would examples of obstruction.
Posted on 5/12/19 at 5:53 pm to bfniii
Moreover, whether it’s possible or not, how exactly was the investigation obstructed? Criticizing the investigation doesn’t obstruct it. What acts interfered with or prevented the investigation in any way?
Posted on 5/12/19 at 6:10 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Having said that, yes, a person can very easily be guilty of obstruction of an investigation even if they are innocent and there was no actual crime.
Yes like wiping servers, taking hammers to blackberries and so forth I thought the progs were all good with obstructing as long as there was no intent to commit a crime
Posted on 5/12/19 at 6:16 pm to bfniii
quote:
Barr is legally bound to not release an unredacted copy of the report and Mueller had no business writing an obstruction section to his report in the first plac
The Dems on the committee know Barr is unable by law to release a totally unredacted report, but this is all theatre. They know the vast majority of Americans and almost all of their constituents don't know this however.
Posted on 5/12/19 at 6:24 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Having said that, yes, a person can very easily be guilty of obstruction of an investigation even if they are innocent and there was no actual crime
There was never a crime and there wouldn't have been an opportunity to obstruct if they hadn't tried to set him up.
Let's say I was a cop, came into your house and since I couldn't find any evidence to convict you, I planted drugs.
And during the investigation, they learned that the drugs were planted and I was innocent.
But since I had hired a lawyer in the meantime and taken to social media to plead my case, the judge found me guilty of trying to obstruct the investigation.
How is that justice?
Posted on 5/12/19 at 6:38 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:
Moreover, whether it’s possible or not, how exactly was the investigation obstructed? Criticizing the investigation doesn’t obstruct it. What acts interfered with or prevented the investigation in any way?
I like to hear the answer to this
Posted on 5/12/19 at 6:44 pm to Pussykat
On a local level, say I am a clerk at a convenience store and the cops send an underaged kid in to try to buy liquor.
It is against the law for the kid to try and buy it. I smell a sting and get a co worker to call the police. When they come in I tell them to arrest the kid. They are trying to make me lose my job and ruin my life by getting me to commit an illegal act. If they refuse to make the arrest can I press charges against the kid and them?
It is against the law for the kid to try and buy it. I smell a sting and get a co worker to call the police. When they come in I tell them to arrest the kid. They are trying to make me lose my job and ruin my life by getting me to commit an illegal act. If they refuse to make the arrest can I press charges against the kid and them?
Posted on 5/12/19 at 6:54 pm to antibarner
Sorry I don’t follow, can you give me another scenario.
Posted on 5/12/19 at 7:06 pm to Revelator
quote:
And during the investigation, they learned that the drugs were planted and I was innocent. But since I had hired a lawyer in the meantime and taken to social media to plead my case, the judge found me guilty of trying to obstruct the investigation. How is that justice?
I agree with your point in that scenario. And I also agree that’s a fair representation of Trump’s actions, with maybe a few additions.
I’m just saying that there CAN be criminal obstruction of an investigation, even if a person is innocent AND there was no actual crime. I think the Dems are using this view of Trump’s actions, even though I think they’re wrong.
Here’s another scenario: A woman claims that she was raped, but no rape occurred. In fact, let’s say there wasn’t even any sexual encounter at all, just to make it a cut and dried case of an actual non-crime. Now, if the man created a fake letter claiming it was from the woman in which she admitted she made up the story to spite him, that WOULD be obstruction.
Posted on 5/12/19 at 7:14 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Now suppose the CFO asked someone to lie for him to cover for him in some way, or that he falsified a document (back dated it or something) to cover for himself. That would examples of obstruction.
But what if he told someone to create the document but the person never did it? Can he obstruct just by wanting it done? Innocent to begin with, document never created..how would I be guilty of anything?
Posted on 5/12/19 at 7:31 pm to Pussykat
This is sort of what the FBI did to Papadapoulous (sp)planted the evidence and tried to get me to commit the crime
This post was edited on 5/12/19 at 7:33 pm
Posted on 5/12/19 at 8:21 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:there's the problem with the scenario. i said no crime was committed. if no crime was committed (i.e. the mueller report), such as lying about the paperwork, how can there be obstruction? merely trying to clear your name is not obstruction. the left is saying it can be. no, that is wrong because that would be guilty until proven innocent.
Now suppose the CFO asked someone to lie for him to cover for him in some way, or that he falsified a document (back dated it or something)
Posted on 5/12/19 at 8:23 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:there is the problem. you are introducing a new element into the scenario that doesn't exist in trump's case.
if the man created a fake letter claiming it was from the woman
Posted on 5/12/19 at 8:25 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:they are claiming that by firing comey, trump obstructed the investigation. trump is well within his rights to have done so and now, it is clear that it was warranted and investigations are being started into comey's actions. so the left's point about comey is completely wrong
how exactly was the investigation obstructed?
Posted on 5/12/19 at 8:31 pm to bfniii
When there is no guilt there is no corrupt intent since the intent was for justice to prevail. That justice being innocence. Therefore in DJT's case for example since he knew he was innocent he was enabling justice, not obstructing it. There can be not obstruction when a person is innocent. At least by the investigated party. Investigators could obstruct justice however. And do.
As to Barr the dems don't want the original without legal deletions copy of Mueller since they already know what is in it and it's not good for them. So they enclosed a poison pill in the request making it impossible for Barr to provide what they ask for. Enabling them to carry on with the political circus.
As to Barr the dems don't want the original without legal deletions copy of Mueller since they already know what is in it and it's not good for them. So they enclosed a poison pill in the request making it impossible for Barr to provide what they ask for. Enabling them to carry on with the political circus.
This post was edited on 5/12/19 at 8:41 pm
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