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Posted on 2/20/18 at 12:59 pm to asurob1
quote:
Next up. Teacher melts down and guns down half his class.
This is idiotic.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:00 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
There would probably be more screw-ups, lost weapons, accidental discharges, and the occasional accidental shooting in any quarter than there would be lives saved in a given year.
I could not in good conscience argue against that observation.
The vetting of who would be allowed to be armed would have to be intensive to the point that there may be vanishingly few who qualify.
Hiring ex-vets with the prior experience may be one way, if not as a teacher, then as extra security in the halls.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:02 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
There would probably be more screw-ups, lost weapons, accidental discharges, and the occasional accidental shooting in any quarter than there would be lives saved in a given year.
So what you are saying is the threat of shootings in schools is really low, based on the probablities, and noadditionnal prcautions are needed based on the probability of risk...
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:05 pm to wickowick
quote:Objectively, yes.
the threat of shootings in schools is really low, based on the probablities
quote:Low-probability but high impact. Very high impact. Additional precautions should absolutely be on the table. Just not bad ideas.
noadditionnal prcautions are needed based on the probability of risk...
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:05 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
If we were talking one or two well-trained, designated personnel being armed and knowing exactly how to respond to an active shooter situation, sure. But active shooter situations are difficult and complicated for elite, dedicated law enforcement units like SWAT. And let us consider that there are irrational small children mixed in to any potential situation. I think their utility could be pretty limited.
Now that doesn't even scratch the surface of "have you ever met your average primary or secondary school teacher." There would probably be more screw-ups, lost weapons, accidental discharges, and the occasional accidental shooting in any quarter than there would be lives saved in a given year.
A SWAT team's tasks when entering an active shooter situation several minutes after it began, and probably after it's already ended, are much different from an armed teacher who is protecting students.
Also, see my previous post. This is certainly something that is workable if implemented correctly. We all know where these shootings take place most often, and why those locations are selected. The most effective deterrent for an armed individual is always another armed individual.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:05 pm to ChineseBandit58
The vetting should be extremely intense no doubt.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:06 pm to CarrolltonTiger
Instead of concealed carry, i posted this (below) last week. CC can be a major pain in the arse. Lets just be honest, many teachers would get tired of the hassle of constant weapon awareness...
"Biometric gun safes in EVERY classroom, that may or may not contain a firearm. Only school administration and the teacher know which safes contain a weapon. Teachers have the option to be one of the lucky participants in the program. Or not. Similar to airline pilots.
As a Federal Air Marshal for 4 years after 9/11 I can positively state that gun safes in the cockpit of aircraft have been the #1 DETERENT for future acts. Armored doors helps as well. Air Marshals, you can decide on that issue."
TD
"Biometric gun safes in EVERY classroom, that may or may not contain a firearm. Only school administration and the teacher know which safes contain a weapon. Teachers have the option to be one of the lucky participants in the program. Or not. Similar to airline pilots.
As a Federal Air Marshal for 4 years after 9/11 I can positively state that gun safes in the cockpit of aircraft have been the #1 DETERENT for future acts. Armored doors helps as well. Air Marshals, you can decide on that issue."
TD
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:07 pm to Navytiger74
Tell that to that coach’s family you dumbass
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:13 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:That's fair. And I conceded that a couple of well-trained staff responders on scene could be a good thing. But I have a hard time believing that the average teacher in an American public school could do much good with a sidearm in a locked drawer when shite pops off.
A SWAT team's tasks when entering an active shooter situation several minutes after it began, and probably after it's already ended, are much different from an armed teacher who is protecting students.
I think you'd get much more bang for your buck with enhanced ECPs, badging, and a couple of roving guards. I haven't done a cost comparison, but accounting for the frickups, lost weapons, and increased insurance liability, you'd probably do better with quality security contractors.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:15 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
Additional precautions should absolutely be on the table.
Well, bring a plate to the table.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:22 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
That's fair. And I conceded that a couple of well-trained staff responders on scene could be a good thing. But I have a hard time believing that the average teacher in an American public school could do much good with a sidearm in a locked drawer when shite pops off.
This is definitely going to be a regional issue. In California you might find people unwilling or unable, but not so much in Texas or Georgia. I've been around guns all my life, I clock more hours on the range than officers are required for certification and so are most of my inner circle of normal every day Georgians.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:26 pm to Navytiger74
quote:Agreed. I would want rigorous training, periodic exercises (simulated and live ammunition in a shoot house scenario) and an annual re-certification. Weapon and ammunition paid for by Federal funds.
If we were talking one or two well-trained, designated personnel being armed and knowing exactly how to respond to an active shooter situation, sure. But active shooter situations are difficult and complicated for elite, dedicated law enforcement units like SWAT. And let us consider that there are irrational small children mixed in to any potential situation. I think their utility could be pretty limited.
quote:Will readily admit this is the weakness to my proposal. Can you find enough individuals to meet the rigors of the training? Not sure.
Now that doesn't even scratch the surface of "have you ever met your average primary or secondary school teacher." There would probably be more screw-ups, lost weapons, accidental discharges, and the occasional accidental shooting in any quarter than there would be lives saved in a given year.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:29 pm to SidewalkDawg
quote:I don't the stats in front of me, but the average primary or secondary school teacher in this country is a woman, probably aged about 30-45 with a lot of older ones and a lot of new hires in their early 20s. Women do handle guns in the south, but even there it's not exactly a most proficient or temperamentally inclined demographic.
This is definitely going to be a regional issue. In California you might find people unwilling or unable, but not so much in Texas or Georgia.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:31 pm to Zach
quote:
It will transform the school from 'soft target' status.
So what if the teacher who carries goes crazy and starts shooting up the school?
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:32 pm to 14&Counting
quote:
So what if the teacher who carries goes crazy and starts shooting up the school?
Check Page 2
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:34 pm to Zach
Teachers willing to carry should be given an incentive like an extra $1000 in salary. Local LEO/National Guard/Private trainers can train teachers at a deep discount or for free yearly or every two years. They don't have to be packing Dirty Harry's gun; it could be one easily concealed and no second thought given about it. It is a doable thing. I'd send my kids to a school where I know some of the teachers are packing heat.
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:35 pm to asurob1
quote:
Next up. Teacher melts down and guns down half his class. One of the more idiotic proposals from the gun lovers on this forum.
What is to stop a police officer from melting down and mowing down 15 people?
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:35 pm to 14&Counting
What if the captain of a Navy ship goes crazy and rams a passenger liner.
What if a cop goes crazy and shoots up a mall.
What if a soldier goes crazy at the dmz and starts the war all over again.
Ban Navy ships, cops with guns and soldiers at the dmz
What if a cop goes crazy and shoots up a mall.
What if a soldier goes crazy at the dmz and starts the war all over again.
Ban Navy ships, cops with guns and soldiers at the dmz
Posted on 2/20/18 at 1:36 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
That's fair. And I conceded that a couple of well-trained staff responders on scene could be a good thing. But I have a hard time believing that the average teacher in an American public school could do much good with a sidearm in a locked drawer when shite pops off.
I think the goal would be to ensure that it's not the average teachers that we're arming. Volunteering is great, but that shouldn't be the only qualifier for this responsibility.
quote:
I think you'd get much more bang for your buck with enhanced ECPs, badging, and a couple of roving guards. I haven't done a cost comparison, but accounting for the frickups, lost weapons, and increased insurance liability, you'd probably do better with quality security contractors.
Why not all of that? We don't have to meet quotas for armed teachers or even make goals. Just having it as an option is a fantastic idea if you ask me.
It'd be nice if some companies would offer the training at a heavily reduced cost, or maybe no cost at all. I also don't think we need to factor in the cost of firearms. Just create an approved list and let teachers bring their own weapons, maybe with a reimbursment or a bump in salary. There could be some issues with that, but nothing that wouldn't be simple to overcome.
Also, "quality" contractors would cost a lot more than arming teachers. You still have the same or similar costs, but now you have additional employees with salaries and benefits, inflated rates, and profit margins.
I don't have the perfect solution, but I'd bet if we get some smart people in a room together, we could smooth it all out.
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