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Started By
Message
Is abortion a state issue?
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:06 pm
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:06 pm
As a preamble to my argument, I quote the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence:
Several of the Amendments to the United States Constitution expressly limit the power of the federal government. For example, the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving a person of life without due process:
quote:Though not binding on any governmental authority, the Preamble expresses an essential element of natural law. Individuals have a right to life, and the government has limited power to violate that right or to grant other individuals the authority to violate that right.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Several of the Amendments to the United States Constitution expressly limit the power of the federal government. For example, the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving a person of life without due process:
quote:Through Incorporation, several of the Amendments' prohibitions on governmental authority became applicable to the states. Indeed, the Fourteenth Amendment specifically limits the power of state governments:
No person shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
quote:Moreover, the Tenth Amendment does not create a dichotomy of power between the federal government and the state governments. Rather, the Ninth Amendment suggests that other rights, rights in the individual, limit the powers of the federal and state governments:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
quote:Accordingly, the question arises whether states may enact laws that authorize abortion (or any indefensible murder for that matter). If fetuses are persons, may states enact laws that authorize individuals to deprive fetuses of life without due process of law? Put another way, may states infringe on an individual's right to life? One would hardly expect a state statute that permits the murder of senior citizens to pass constitutional muster.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
20
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:07 pm to Salviati
Is the word "abortion" in the Constitution?
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:11 pm to Salviati
So are you asking if the Federal Government should define what Life is and when it begins? Because I’d rather not have that argument out of reach of my local community
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:12 pm to Salviati
What powers are not specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution are delegated to the states.
Well, that’s the way it’s supposed to be.
Well, that’s the way it’s supposed to be.
This post was edited on 5/9/22 at 2:13 pm
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:14 pm to Salviati
I would say if a person can be charged with two murders killing a pregnant woman, then a person should be charged for murder if they abort a baby just for the reason of convenience.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:15 pm to Salviati
quote:
Is abortion a state issue?
I believe it is a morality issue above all else. This wouldn’t even be a topic of discussion if Americans still believed in and practiced the Laws of the Bible. Instead, we have an entire political party that adheres to the edicts of Satan and viciously defends their practices, while also claiming the moral high ground.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:15 pm to Salviati
quote:
If fetuses are persons, may states enact laws that authorize individuals to deprive fetuses of life without due process of law?
The states are going to be the ones deciding whether fetuses are persons.
Your analysis is flawed in that it assumes that the opinion that fetus=person is ubiquitous. It isn’t. Huge swaths of the country disagree and their state laws will reflect that.
This post was edited on 5/9/22 at 2:16 pm
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:18 pm to VoxDawg
quote:Are the Fifth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments in the Constitution?
Is the word "abortion" in the Constitution?
Are the words "marriage," "education," "sexual," "contraceptive," etc. in the Constitution?
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:21 pm to Salviati
Nothing about abortion in the constitution.
You people hate the thing anyway.
You people hate the thing anyway.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:22 pm to Salviati
Amendments are part of the Constitution, assmunch. If it's not in the text or specifically addressed via amendment, it's a Tenth issue and assumed to be the states' responsibilities for 50 potential solutions as determined by their own legislatures.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:23 pm to Indefatigable
quote:Why? Why do states get to determine if a class of people may be killed? You failed to discuss the limits on state authority.
The states are going to be the ones deciding whether fetuses are persons.
quote:I understand the people disagree.
Your analysis is flawed in that it assumes that the opinion that fetus=person is ubiquitous. It isn’t. Huge swaths of the country disagree and their state laws will reflect that.
But why does anyone get to vote on whether a class of persons may be murdered?
Fundamentally, fetuses are either persons or they are not. If they are persons, people do not get to vote to kill them. Democracy does not supersede a fundamental right to life.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:25 pm to TheFonz
quote:Not all powers reside in either the federal government or the state government.
What powers are not specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution are delegated to the states.
Some powers may not be exercised at all.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:27 pm to Salviati
Unless its in the bill of rights or an amendment to the constitution specifically everything should be a state issue
Its obvious
United States
Not United federal districts
Its obvious
United States
Not United federal districts
This post was edited on 5/9/22 at 2:29 pm
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:27 pm to TheFonz
quote:
What powers are not specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution are delegated to the states.
The Constitution doesn't delegate ANY powers to the states. The States hold those powers at the outset and only allow certain of those powers to be exercised by the Federal Government.
See the actual verbiage of the 9th and 10th Amendments below:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The powers not delegated to the United States [federal government] are not "delegated" to the States or the People. They are reserved to the States and the People because it is the States and the People who hold primary status and ownership of all rights. It is the Federal Government who must be able to produce "book, chapter, and verse" of where it is awarded a right or a power before it can rightfully and legally act in a given way based upon legislation.
For the same reason, I don't like to hear someone talk about their "Constitutional rights." Ony the federal government has "Constitutional rights." The States, and the People have inherent rights which were endowed by their Maker, not granted or delegated by the Federal Government.
I hope this makes sense and doesn't come off as pompous or arrogant. I just believe that words, grammar, and syntax combine to have intricate and exquisite meaning that ought not be allowed to become ambiguous through the careless use of language.
This post was edited on 5/9/22 at 2:29 pm
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:28 pm to VoxDawg
quote:Not all powers either reside in the federal government or the state government.
Amendments are part of the Constitution, assmunch. If it's not in the text or specifically addressed via amendment, it's a Tenth issue and assumed to be the states' responsibilities for 50 potential solutions as determined by their own legislatures.
Some powers may not be exercised at all.
quote:So, what of the Ninth Amendment and the Fourteenth Amendment?
If it's not in the text or specifically addressed via amendment
Is there no right to life?
Can states authorize indiscriminate murder by statute?
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:29 pm to Salviati
quote:
Can states authorize indiscriminate murder by statute?
As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping a state from making murder legal
It is a state crime
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:32 pm to Swamp Angel
Your post is excellent except for this statement:
The statement appears to fail to consider the limitations placed on states through Incorporation of the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment.
quote:
For the same reason, I don't like to hear someone talk about their "Constitutional rights." Ony the federal government has "Constitutional rights." The States, and the People have inherent rights which were endowed by their Maker, not granted or delegated by the Federal Government.
The statement appears to fail to consider the limitations placed on states through Incorporation of the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment.
This post was edited on 5/9/22 at 2:36 pm
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:32 pm to Salviati
I would prefer we pass an amendment to the constitution to protect life from conception but that has as great as a chance as me winning the lottery, and I don’t even buy lottery tickets. So leave it to the states.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:35 pm to Caraway Rye
quote:State crime laws arise from the police powers of the state.
As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping a state from making murder legal
It is a state crime
The police powers of the state arise from the state's authority to make laws for public health, safety, and welfare.
Authorizing murder would not seem to be a police power.
Moreover, you have failed to discuss constitutional limits on a state's power.
Posted on 5/9/22 at 2:38 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:You're okay with voters having the right to decide if a class of people can be murdered?
I would prefer we pass an amendment to the constitution to protect life from conception but that has as great as a chance as me winning the lottery, and I don’t even buy lottery tickets. So leave it to the states.
And your basis is convenience in enacting the law?
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