re: I don't grasp how families make it.

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Totally disagree with the then you shouldn't have kids mantra

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I dont think anyone is suggesting to just flat out not have kids (though I haven’t read through the entire thread).. but maybe dont have 3 kids, or 4 kids... personally, I don’t have any kids at all, and i wouldnt have any unless i was LOADED... but that’s just me.

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What I think is that we live in an immensely affluent nation where having an iPhone 7 is considered poor. I think our perspective is VERY out of whack

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Translated - we're a nation that doesn't live within our means. I think the younger generations are especially good examples of this. Maxing out 3, 4, 5 credit cards is very telling of one's financial wisdom.

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Translated - we're a nation that doesn't live within our means. I think the younger generations are especially good examples of this. Maxing out 3, 4, 5 credit cards is very telling of one's financial wisdom.

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I won't tar just the young with that. Hell, my mother has ALWAYS been a financial train wreck. However, AT LEAST she knows it. She's not sitting around wondering how it happened and thinking she got screwed.

fricking up financially is one thing. fricking up financially and then refusing to take responsibility is another.

And, even absent fricking up. There really is no shame in living very modestly with 3 children.

Alas, what pretty much every American alive describes as "modest" just isn't by any rational human measure............modest

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This is true, but I don't think that it cancels out facts such as increasing wealth gap

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Wealth gap increasing isn't really something anyone should care about at all.

The wealth gap isn't a measure of economic success. Ethiopia has virtually no wealth gap. So did the USSR.

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decreasing middle class

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Not a thing and has been shown repeatedly on this board.

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that most jobs being created in today's economy are not jobs where someone can support a family / kids -

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Well, this is just obviously false based on walking out your front door.

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without so much blame this group, blame that group, etc. in some sort of weird form of tribalism.

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I'm not blaming a group at all. I think America..........AS A WHOLE.............has no fricking perspective whatsoever on just how fricking rich it is...........just how rich we ALL are!

We morons run around saying, "but Great Britain has national health care"..........I'm like..............yeah.........and the average family of 4 lives in less than 1000sf and is far less likely to have basically any goody you can name that pretty much all Americans have.

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I dont think anyone is suggesting to just flat out not have kids (though I haven’t read through the entire thread).. but maybe dont have 3 kids, or 4 kids... personally, I don’t have any kids at all, and i wouldnt have any unless i was LOADED... but that’s just me.

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There were a ton of "don't have that many kids" posts on previous pages.

Honestly there is little difference between 2 and 4 kids as far as total expense. With a $2k tax credit per kid, their food is covered if you are cooking at home. The younger children can mostly wear hand me downs - additional clothing expense is minimal.

If you don't eat out, stick to mostly free activities and put them in public school, it's not a huge burden. Now you can choose to make it a huge financial burden by putting them in expensive activities and eating out all the time, but that is a choice not a need. The biggest burden is if one spouse has to stay home or alternatively childcare when they are young.

And if you want to look at it from only a dollars and cents perspective (which is not why I would do it), what would be the cost of taking care of yourself in the last 20 years of your life in a nursing home? That could easily be $1-2 million. Compare that with the cost to raise a couple of kids that also bring a tax benefit while you raise them that can possibly take care of you later in life if you cannot take care of yourself.

Stop being afraid to commit to something that might fail (marriage) and help our nation flourish in the future.

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Wealth gap increasing isn't really something anyone should care about at all.

The wealth gap isn't a measure of economic success.

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No, but if it is taken to extremes, as it is trending now, then it can be a huge negative on our capitalist markets. The more people with buying power, the more efficiently our markets can function. I guess this is kind of off topic to this thread though.

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Not a thing and has been shown repeatedly on this board.

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It is a thing looking long term, i'm not arguing trump policies vs. democrat policies. Just looking at the percentage of america in the middle class now vs. 40 / 50 years ago, it is lower.

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ell, this is just obviously false based on walking out your front door.

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90+% of the jobs created in the last 10 years are part time / gig work without benefits. Those aren't the kind of jobs you can really raise a family on with healthcare costs. etc. Millennial are having less kids, making less babies, etc. - there are economic reasons that are making people do so less.

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I'm not blaming a group at all. I think America.

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that wasn't really directed at you, just a general sentiment on the way conversations tend to go. Didn't mean to imply anything like that.

I hate to say it but having 3 kids on that income is the problem. I value the family, but that last kid probably put a yuge strain on their debt to income ratio. Also does she keep up with the kardashians on FB and try to impress with new things. Do they have a Suburban and an F250? Things get tough with 2 car notes at 500+ each a month. My sister always complains about being broke but post new shite on FB everyday. I told her to quit wasting her money on useless shite. The new thing breaking families is this chicken sandwich brainwash, gotta wait in line for an hour to get that shitty sandwich so they can post it on FB and brag to all the soccer moms.

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90+% of the jobs created in the last 10 years are part time / gig work without benefits.

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Source?

In the world of civil engineering, this is the best economy in the last 40 years.

We aren't the normal american though.

LINK

That is an article from 2016 highlighting the rising gig economy. Healthcare regulations also make employers want to 1099 people, etc.


Its just a changing economic landscape in terms of the kind of work companies need and it will eventually a net positive - people able to do the kind of work they want, make their own hours, etc. But we need to change some of the ways we treat benefits (healthcare mainly) for us to take full advantage of technological developments to benefit us.

I have to run to a meeting so I'm bowing out for now.

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And if you want to look at it from only a dollars and cents perspective (which is not why I would do it), what would be the cost of taking care of yourself in the last 20 years of your life in a nursing home? That could easily be $1-2 million. Compare that with the cost to raise a couple of kids that also bring a tax benefit while you raise them that can possibly take care of you later in life if you cannot take care of yourself.

Stop being afraid to commit to something that might fail (marriage) and help our nation flourish in the future.

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I actually found myself agreeing with your post for the most part, until this.

First off, not sure if you were directing that last part at me- but i am married, just no kids.


And the list of people who’s kids want nothing to do with them, no matter how well they were parented, is very very long.. as is the list of people who’s kids are just ‘too busy’, toss them into a nursing home and visit them a couple times a month... i think your “investment” idea of having kids to *possibly* (i’m Glad you at least threw that in) help take care of you later is wishful thinking at best, and a fantasy at worst.