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Clarification of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment

Posted on 2/22/18 at 12:47 am
Posted by narddogg81
Vancouver
Member since Jan 2012
19630 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 12:47 am
From the founding fathers themselves (hint, it's not about hunting deer)

quote:



"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
Posted by beachdude
FL
Member since Nov 2008
5622 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 12:57 am to
Huzzah! Thanks. Good background regarding the 2nd Amendment!
Posted by GeorgeWest
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2013
13055 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:05 am to
Does this mean that any adult has the right to own/carry any kind of arms they choose?
Posted by beachdude
FL
Member since Nov 2008
5622 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:16 am to
And just to make it a little more personal, our family’s ancestors fought in the pre-revolutionary battles in North Carolina in the late 1760’s early 1770’s as “Regulators” (sound familiar?) against the Crown. One was hanged and generally regarded as one of the first patriots of the revolution. There is a significant group of people out there who may not own a gun who believe totally in the Bill of Rights, of which the 2nd Amendment is a part.
Posted by narddogg81
Vancouver
Member since Jan 2012
19630 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:18 am to
quote:

Does this mean that any adult has the right to own/carry any kind of arms they choose?
it means they are obligated to own arms equivalent to a regular army soldier. Sorry, the ar15 is the bare minimum that the founding fathers, if they were alive today, would recommend that every able bodied adult own and become proficient in using.
This post was edited on 2/22/18 at 1:19 am
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64889 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:19 am to
quote:

Does this mean that any adult has the right to own/carry any kind of arms they choose?


I see what you are trying to do here. Just stop it. The Second Amendment uses the phrase "to bear arms." That means arms that you can physically carry and use for self-defense. So no, that doesn't mean your average American can own an atomic bomb - similar to how the First Amendment doesn't give you the right to shout "fire!" in the middle of a crowded room.
Posted by Tigerlaff
FIGHTING out of the Carencro Sonic
Member since Jan 2010
20840 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:27 am to
quote:

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783


Imagine living amongst people this uncucked.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46505 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:37 am to
quote:

it means they are obligated to own arms equivalent to a regular army soldier. Sorry, the ar15 is the bare minimum that the founding fathers, if they were alive today, would recommend that every able bodied adult own and become proficient in using.


But then are we not obligated to legalize full auto weaponry?

Just thinking out loud. The context of military grade weapons has changed so dramatically, and in 2018 even a citizenry with full auto weapons has no chance against the armed forces of a first world power.
This post was edited on 2/22/18 at 1:37 am
Posted by Errerrerrwere
Member since Aug 2015
38227 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:38 am to
Full auto weapons was an olive branch. Now you want semi-automatic rifles. When will it stop with you nuts? Go frick yourself.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46505 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:39 am to
quote:

Full auto weapons was an olive branch. Now you want semi-automatic rifles. When will it stop with you nuts? Go frick yourself.


I don't think you know who you're talking to
This post was edited on 2/22/18 at 1:39 am
Posted by Errerrerrwere
Member since Aug 2015
38227 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:40 am to
quote:

and in 2018 even a citizenry with full auto weapons has no chance against the armed forces of a first world power.


Iraq and Afghanistan say helllo.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46505 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:42 am to
It took us 21 days to conquer Iraq
Posted by narddogg81
Vancouver
Member since Jan 2012
19630 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:45 am to
quote:

But then are we not obligated to legalize full auto weaponry? 
liberties once they are removed are pretty much impossible to get back. No I don't think we have to allow fully automatic weapons for widespread private sale, i think the government would be plenty deterred at the thought of trying to confiscate 300 million ar15s from a populace that didn't want to relinquish them. But I do think we can't give one single inch of ground further to the gun control agenda, because they will never stop requiring that next inch "for the sake of the children"
This post was edited on 2/22/18 at 1:46 am
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:46 am to
quote:

Does this mean that any adult has the right to own/carry any kind of arms they choose?


Yes. It’s pretty simple.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:48 am to
quote:

It took us 21 days to conquer Iraq

And then we lost
Posted by narddogg81
Vancouver
Member since Jan 2012
19630 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:49 am to
quote:

And then we lost ?
no, then we won, then we got Obama, then we just gave up and handed these countries over to radical Islam
This post was edited on 2/22/18 at 1:51 am
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46505 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:50 am to
quote:

And then we lost


Um...
Posted by reo45
Member since Nov 2015
6362 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 1:58 am to
You might add that grenades, bazookas or any other weapon woukd be permitted.

But, this nation would not look anywhere close to what it is today if they were deities that could not die.

There would be no central bank; no irs; no DofEducation; welfare; corporations (they abhorred them because of the relationship between corporate and government like the British Tea Company). Etc..

They would scoff at the notion some government official told them they could not own an automatic machine gun or grenade launcher. They would laugh them to scorn.

But, since we have a broken moral compass, with broken families, a degenerate entertainment industry, broken education system for most of society, a criminal deep state with lifelong snakes in power, people get scared and think somehow a law abiding citizen should not have be able to own these things because it is unnecessary.

Yet, as laid out right here in this post the reason it is necessary is because government at its core is evil as our forefathers have mentioned. It is a necessary evil that must be checked.
Posted by narddogg81
Vancouver
Member since Jan 2012
19630 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 2:01 am to
quote:

quote:
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." 

- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783



Imagine living amongst people this uncucked.
lol, this is actually a quote from the guy who became prime minister of England right after the conclusion of the revolutionary war, led England through first part of the Napoleonic wars. Not a founding father obviously, but that's just a great quote of the time
This post was edited on 2/22/18 at 2:02 am
Posted by Clames
Member since Oct 2010
16529 posts
Posted on 2/22/18 at 2:19 am to
quote:

The context of military grade weapons has changed so dramatically, and in 2018 even a citizenry with full auto weapons has no chance against the armed forces of a first world power.



How much military experience do you have again? Zero?

The US v. Miller stated pretty emphatically that the 2nd Amendment includes firearms that can be considered "ordinary military equipment". At the very least the 1986 FOPA is a direct violation of that decision but that is a battle for another day. 2nd Amendment rights have been chipped away for decades and it will take decades to set it right again.
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