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Message
Posted this on Poli Board too; Mass Shooting related...
Posted on 2/15/18 at 1:37 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 1:37 pm
I know I may be preaching to the choir here with all the gun guys on this board but here are some good points to discuss if the topic comes up. Changing minds starts with solid factual data and building an argument from there. Those who are overly emotional shouldn't be worried about, but those on the fence need to hear good info.
If you have anything to add go ahead and do so.
______________________________--
I never post here and may get AIDs from doing so but here's a PSA:
I'm no firearm historian but a quick google search told me that the first semi automatic handgun was invented back in 1892. For those who can't count that is 126 years.
Firearms are actually pretty simple tools when you get down to the basics. Where technology has improved in more recent years comes with improvements in accuracy and more consistency in ammunition. As far as the basic parts of an AR15, I could grab an M16 from the Vietnam era and swap parts with one of my personal AR15s.
And for those considering magazine bans, consider this - a magazine is simply a box with a spring in it. The rise of 3D printers makes virtually anyone capable of printing a box and putting a spring in it. Know that Cho was able to kill 32 at Virginia Tech back in 2007 with a bunch of 10 round magazines. The average response time for police is around 8 minutes nationally and a person can reload a whole bunch of times in 8 minutes.
A controversial solution maybe, but as a firearms instructor I think our best way to defend schools against these psychopaths is to have a defense plan tailored to each school, with a handpicked group of armed teachers. Every school can have its own method of properly storing the firearms (obviously away from the children) and it can train teachers exactly how they want them to train. The teachers can voluntarily choose to be one of these teachers and the school can decide if it wishes for the person to be armed. I don't necessarily dislike the idea of armed security at schools but that leaves it up to one single first responder rather than turning trained volunteers into first responders. I think thoroughly training and empowering teachers would be much more effective.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that teachers have been armed in Utah since Sandy Hook happened.
I too am just as bothered seeing these kids torn up emotionally and hearing of how many died. I can't imagine being a parent and losing a child. But the only way for these crimes to decrease in number is for these psychos to encounter resistance right after their evil plans begin. Mass shooters are just like predators in the wild - they want weak, soft prey. And when the prey fight back, the predators are much more likely to crumble and retreat.
If you have anything to add go ahead and do so.
______________________________--
I never post here and may get AIDs from doing so but here's a PSA:
I'm no firearm historian but a quick google search told me that the first semi automatic handgun was invented back in 1892. For those who can't count that is 126 years.
Firearms are actually pretty simple tools when you get down to the basics. Where technology has improved in more recent years comes with improvements in accuracy and more consistency in ammunition. As far as the basic parts of an AR15, I could grab an M16 from the Vietnam era and swap parts with one of my personal AR15s.
And for those considering magazine bans, consider this - a magazine is simply a box with a spring in it. The rise of 3D printers makes virtually anyone capable of printing a box and putting a spring in it. Know that Cho was able to kill 32 at Virginia Tech back in 2007 with a bunch of 10 round magazines. The average response time for police is around 8 minutes nationally and a person can reload a whole bunch of times in 8 minutes.
A controversial solution maybe, but as a firearms instructor I think our best way to defend schools against these psychopaths is to have a defense plan tailored to each school, with a handpicked group of armed teachers. Every school can have its own method of properly storing the firearms (obviously away from the children) and it can train teachers exactly how they want them to train. The teachers can voluntarily choose to be one of these teachers and the school can decide if it wishes for the person to be armed. I don't necessarily dislike the idea of armed security at schools but that leaves it up to one single first responder rather than turning trained volunteers into first responders. I think thoroughly training and empowering teachers would be much more effective.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that teachers have been armed in Utah since Sandy Hook happened.
I too am just as bothered seeing these kids torn up emotionally and hearing of how many died. I can't imagine being a parent and losing a child. But the only way for these crimes to decrease in number is for these psychos to encounter resistance right after their evil plans begin. Mass shooters are just like predators in the wild - they want weak, soft prey. And when the prey fight back, the predators are much more likely to crumble and retreat.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 1:42 pm
4
Posted on 2/15/18 at 1:41 pm to bapple
quote:
Poly board
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 1:42 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 1:41 pm to ChatRabbit77
quote:
Poly board
Edited... Dumb mistake.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 2:20 pm to bapple
My personal opinion is that Drs these days are way too liberal with the prescription of anti-psychotics and have a dangerously lack of follow up after prescribing them.
There is a major mental health problem in this country.
The only drs that that should be prescribing anti-psychotics are mental health drs who should then be required to have intense (meaning often) follow ups.
There is a major mental health problem in this country.
The only drs that that should be prescribing anti-psychotics are mental health drs who should then be required to have intense (meaning often) follow ups.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 2:20 pm to bapple
bapple... common sense has no place in a gun rights argument. 
Posted on 2/15/18 at 2:32 pm to bapple
Agree with training, as long as it is actual training. Knowing how to use a Glock and shooting paper is not sufficient.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:09 pm to Fachie
quote:
My personal opinion is that Drs these days are way too liberal with the prescription of anti-psychotics and have a dangerously lack of follow up after prescribing them.
I agree that it's interesting seeing the anti-depressant usage rate continue to rise and yet the depression rate continues to rise. Read "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker. He discusses it in detail.
quote:
Agree with training, as long as it is actual training. Knowing how to use a Glock and shooting paper is not sufficient.
Agreed. I tell all my students that my concealed carry class is not sufficient for learning how to fight with your firearm. True defensive firearm courses where you shoot 100s of times teach you how to fight with your firearm, not one day shooting at paper 50 times.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 3:11 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:12 pm to bapple
and a resource officer hanging in the quad with the hot teachers during recess isn't gonna do squat...
the entry points to schools need to be layered and secure.. the contact point is a few hundred feet/yards.. that way when someone breaks the perimeter - BOOM it shuts down....
once the contact makes it into the school such as the office.. heck he is home free at that point......
go try to walk into a nuclear plant and see how far you get..... heck... go break down in front of the entrance to one and watch what happens..
the entry points to schools need to be layered and secure.. the contact point is a few hundred feet/yards.. that way when someone breaks the perimeter - BOOM it shuts down....
once the contact makes it into the school such as the office.. heck he is home free at that point......
go try to walk into a nuclear plant and see how far you get..... heck... go break down in front of the entrance to one and watch what happens..
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:16 pm to choupiquesushi
quote:
go try to walk into a nuclear plant and see how far you get..... heck... go break down in front of the entrance to one and watch what happens..
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you're advocating that we make our schools as impenetrable as nuclear plants? There are like 25,000 public high schools in the United States. Do you have any idea how much that would cost? Not to mention the logistical nightmare of moving so many people in and out of a school on a daily basis.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:18 pm to choupiquesushi
My kids are in middle school.
When the bell at the school rings every door in the school is locked. There is a camera and automatic lock that goes to the front office.
Also, every school in my little suburb has an armed police officer in the school every single day.
When the bell at the school rings every door in the school is locked. There is a camera and automatic lock that goes to the front office.
Also, every school in my little suburb has an armed police officer in the school every single day.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:22 pm to bapple
quote:
I agree that it's interesting seeing the anti-depressant usage rate continue to rise and yet the depression rate continues to rise. Read "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker. He discusses it in detail.
It is, but the issue of school/mass shootings in the United States is highly complex, and cannot be attributed to one simple problem (gun control, mental health, armed guards in schools, lack of morality, etc.). In my opinion, all of these subjects are worth talking about, but this is a multi-faceted issue that will require a substantial amount of rational and civil conversation by all interested groups in order to make any headway towards a solution. The unfortunate reality of the situation is that rarely happens because these events are very polarizing and people are very quick to pick a side and put up defenses - firearm advocates being no different.
Unfortunately for those of us who are responsible gun owners, the most easily identifiable issue is "gun control," which is also a very emotional issue in and of itself for many people for various reasons.
I don't know that this post has any specific point other than the fact that the issue is beyond complicated. I'm really just introspectively upset that it keeps happening.
quote:
Changing minds starts with solid factual data and building an argument from there. Those who are overly emotional shouldn't be worried about, but those on the fence need to hear good info.
Bapple, I have a very high level of respect for your firearm knowledge and I always look forward to your posts, but these situations are inherently emotional for a very large number of people...particularly those with children. That goes for people on both sides of the fence with gun control. Frankly, it's not an emotional issue for me. I just like to think I'm objective enough to understand why that's the case. That said, I don't have kids.
Nothing is positive is ever going to come from these things until people just start listening to each other without going in with some hardline belief about what is or is not the right way to fix it. I think you'll find that talking to those who are "overly emotional" about things such as this goes much more smoothly if you start by listening to what they've got to say.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 3:29 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:32 pm to bapple
Sensible gun laws have been enacted throughout our history. Old west towns would make you turn your guns in with the sheriff. Can you imagine if we tried that today? People with mental health issues shouldn't have guns. Period. You have to pass test to drive a car. Be an engineer, Dr, lawyer etc. I don't see anything wrong with requiring responsible ownership and a baseline knowledge with fire arms.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:36 pm to AUCE05
quote:
I don't see anything wrong with requiring responsible ownership and a baseline knowledge with fire arms.
It won't be effective and it is a barrier to entry for a right. You should train and take classes but there is no reason the government should force people to.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 3:37 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:38 pm to bluemoons
quote:
I think you'll find that talking to those who are "overly emotional" about things such as this goes much more smoothly if you start by listening to what they've got to say.
I agree absolutely. The only problem about this is you have so many groups on the other side such as Everytown for Gun Safety that put out blatant BS and then you have the media pick up that BS and report it as absolute fact.
ETA: Everytown put out the statistic that there have been 18 school shootings so far this year. That statistic apparently includes every shooting within a 5 min radius of any school.
When you call bullshite, more times than not the person you're debating loses their collective mind.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:44 pm to bbvdd
quote:
My kids are in middle school.
When the bell at the school rings every door in the school is locked. There is a camera and automatic lock that goes to the front office.
Also, every school in my little suburb has an armed police officer in the school every single day.
Same here as far as locked entry and SRO's. At the elementary schools, there are cameras at the front entrance and you have to be buzzed in. The back entrances stay locked and are only there for emergency exits, and alarms will sound if opened. Most of the time the SRO is sitting at a desk by the entrance, except during carpool times where they are on foot outside.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:47 pm to bbvdd
quote:
I agree absolutely. The only problem about this is you have so many groups on the other side such as Everytown for Gun Safety that put out blatant BS and then you have the media pick up that BS and report it as absolute fact.
Agreed. My only point was just that. The immediate defensive positions taken by every special interest group affected by these tragedies makes it very difficult to obtain any progress at all. I think the first thing to do is to figure out how to bridge those gaps such that some type of discussion can be had. As basic as it sounds, I think the best way to go about doing that is just to start really listening to each other.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:49 pm to bluemoons
quote:
It is, but the issue of school/mass shootings in the United States is highly complex, and cannot be attributed to one simple problem
For sure. I was merely replying to his point about depression. I know it plays a part in these incidents but isn't the only reason for them.
quote:
Nothing is positive is ever going to come from these things until people just start listening to each other without going in with some hardline belief about what is or is not the right way to fix it. I think you'll find that talking to those who are "overly emotional" about things such as this goes much more smoothly if you start by listening to what they've got to say.
My apologies for not clearing up what I mean by "overly emotional."
I would define "overly emotional" as someone who cannot accept factual information when discussing gun control. I have no problem debating anyone about gun control but we have to start from a point of fact. If it gets to a person simply yelling at me because he/she/ze/they do not like what I have to say, that would be a case of someone being "overly emotional."
While it may be an emotional topic when kids are involved, facts do not care about feelings, nor are they affected by feelings. Adding emotional information to a logical topic does not affect the outcome at all.
Again, I reiterate that I am more than willing to talk to someone who is pro gun control and explain my side while also listening to their ideas. If it stays civil and we have an exchange and still disagree, so be it. Hell, I talked to a coworker recently who thought gun registration was a good idea until I gave him some counterpoints and he admitted he was wrong. But I will not discuss gun control with someone who cannot get past an emotional wall and can only lash out emotionally. Facts have to come first.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:52 pm to bluemoons
quote:
I think the best way to go about doing that is just to start really listening to each other.
I agree but it starts with telling the truth as opposed to falsehoods. I'm sure that comes from both sides too though.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:53 pm to bbvdd
quote:
I agree but it starts with telling the truth as opposed to falsehoods. I'm sure that comes from both sides too though.
Agreed. As emotional as it is when kids' lives are involved, facts have to come first.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:57 pm to bapple
People need to understand Americans don't have unlimited gun rights. The supreme court has stated this fact more than once. We have the right and ability to adjust gun laws based on public safety.
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