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SpeckledTiger
LSU Fan
Denham Springs
Member since Jul 2010
960 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
There's only one compromise here, if there must be one. If you want individual concealed carry laws on the state level, then legal open carry must be allowed in every state and backed by federal protection. Anything else, and you're allowing states to circumvent The Constitution by limiting a fundamental right. Personally, I think having a permit to exercise a right is unconstitutional, but we need to take baby steps here.


lsu1919
LSU Fan
Member since May 2017
525 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

If you want individual concealed carry laws on the state level, then legal open carry must be allowed in every state and backed by federal protection. Anything else, and you're allowing states to circumvent The Constitution by limiting a fundamental right.



That's a bigger debate. My opinion is, not really. All the 2nd amend guarantees is that the government can't take your guns, in case you ever need those guns to overthrow the government. The ability to carry those guns, in public, when they are not needed to overthrow the government is where the debate lies. The constitution in no way is being infringed upon when you can't carry a gun into a school, church, etc, in my opinion.

quote:

Personally, I think having a permit to exercise a right is unconstitutional, but we need to take baby steps here.


Well, the right to conceal carry is debatable as a constitutional right.

But, think about voting. Voting is a constitutional right. Yet it is legislated. In fact, it needs legislation. I for one want every single person who votes to show a government-issued picture I.d. Is that unconstitutional?




TheBoo
New Orleans Saints Fan
The Bay Area
Member since Aug 2012
1680 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
It's obviously an emotional argument from BOTH sides, and I'm far from a leftest, if you only knew me.

You're making the typical "If you aren't 150% in support constitutional carry and condemn those that aren't then you are a liberal and you want all guns banned" argument.

In my state, the great state of Louisiana, you have to complete a CCW shooters training course in order to apply for a permit. I was unaware that this wasn't the case in other states, honestly. If it's not then I agree with you that there is no reason for it at that point.

I never said I support the permit requirement, I agree it's a money grab, but I DO support you attending training with your gun if you want to carry it concealed.

quote:

How could you not apply this to normal gun ownership too?

Easily
This post was edited on 11/30 at 10:21 am


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30
tommy2tone1999
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1132 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

All the 2nd amend guarantees is that the government can't take your guns, in case you ever need those guns to overthrow the government. The ability to carry those guns, in public, when they are not needed to overthrow the government is where the debate lies. The constitution in no way is being infringed upon when you can't carry a gun into a school, church, etc, in my opinion.


Not so,
Second Amendment reads:
quote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep AND BEAR Arms, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.


Anything that requires a permit on how the bear arms is infringing upon that right by definition and is therefore unconstitutional.


Mung
LSU Fan
NorCal
Member since Aug 2007
9029 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

So much for states' rights.


Only important when Feds imposing laws you don't like.


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lsu1919
LSU Fan
Member since May 2017
525 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

Anything that requires a permit on how the bear arms is infringing upon that right by definition and is therefore unconstitutional.


As I said, that's where the debate is. Every word of the second amendment is debatable in its meaning.

quote:

Anything that requires a permit on how the bear arms is infringing


Is it tho? A concealed permit doesn't stop you from bearing arms. It arguably allows you to bear them more and often. All you need to get a concealed permit is some training. Wouldn't we want more people properly trained with guns?

Also, should every single person be allowed to bear arms in any fashion they choose? If I want an Apache helicopter with a full load, should I be allowed to bear my arms? Should people who have been convicted of felonies or have restraining orders be allowed to bear arms at all times and in all places?
This post was edited on 11/30 at 12:36 pm


JamalSanders
Navy Fan
On a boat
Member since Jul 2015
7443 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

All you need to get a concealed permit is some training.


Wrong.

quote:

If I want an Apache helicopter with a full load, should I be allowed to bear my arms?


Yes.


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51
ChatRabbit77
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2013
4286 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

Wouldn't we want more people properly trained with guns?

Not by payment to the government or being required to do it by the government.


Chad504boy
USA Fan
Member since Feb 2005
119254 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

Not by payment to the government or being required to do it by the government.


funny cause the government law allows lots of gun folk to make some good money doing the training.


ChatRabbit77
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2013
4286 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

funny cause the government law allows lots of gun folk to make some good money doing the training.

Subsidies make plenty in the private sector happy. Doesn't make it right.


Chad504boy
USA Fan
Member since Feb 2005
119254 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
it alone doesn't make it wrong.


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tommy2tone1999
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1132 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

A concealed permit doesn't stop you from bearing arms.


The 2A says "infringe", not "stop" There's a difference. Infringe means act so as to limit or undermine something, or to encroach on. You don't have to stop something to infringe upon it.

I would love for everyone to be trained, it doesn't mean that if they aren't that their rights should be diminished by treating them as a privilege like you would a driver's license.

quote:

If I want an Apache helicopter with a full load, should I be allowed to bear my arms?


Absolutely! However, flying it is not a right, and you should be required to get flying lessons and a pilot's license.
This post was edited on 11/30 at 5:34 pm


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60
cave canem
Mississippi St. Fan
land o sand
Member since Oct 2012
6650 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

Isn’t Louisiana’s concealed permit accepted in like 35 states? I’m asking because I’m unsure. If it is, then why force the few states with stricter gun laws to accept it. This seems like opening a huge can of worms.

How does it benefit anyone to force California to accept a Louisiana law?



Bingo, people seem to forget what happens when the pendelum swings back, cramming this down other states throat will not end well and will be used against us in the end.


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bapple
LSU Fan
Capital City
Member since Oct 2010
10047 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
[quote]That helps separate responsible gun carriers from any hillbilly with a temper who wants to tuck a gun in their pants.[\quote]

But you have not stated how there is any physical limitation to someone doing this, regardless if they obtain a permit or not and that is the problem.

Plus the argument you pose is not proven by any statistic. All 10+ states with constitutional carry have no discernible increase in violent crime despite throwing out the permitting process. I’ll copy and paste a response I had the last time this topic came up:

————————

1. If the issue is that no regulated training will lead to an increase in firearm accidents, why have we not seen a rise in accidental firearm incidents in states that have constitutional carry? My guess would be that responsible people who choose to carry know the limitations of their own abilities and will not carry a loaded handgun on their person without the utmost confidence. And if a person makes a mistake or does something to harm his or her self, the person must live with these consequences. It's not the job of the government to predict how this individual could hurt his or her self.

2. If people are afraid of letting law-abiding citizens carry firearms without a permit, why is it not spoken loudly enough that having a felony on your record excludes you from owning a firearm in the first place? A felon would never be able to get a concealed carry permit, and much less have a desire to take a class. This law would not change that and even mentions it in the verbiage.

3. If constitutional carry MAY lead criminals to carry concealed firearms, which is already illegal as previously mentioned, then why haven't crime rates sky-rocketed in constitutional carry states? There has been no significant change in crime statistics in states that have permitless carry.


TheBoo
New Orleans Saints Fan
The Bay Area
Member since Aug 2012
1680 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

But you have not stated how there is any physical limitation to someone doing this, regardless if they obtain a permit or not and that is the problem.

I never said there was a physical limitation provided by training and education. You are still going off the argument of the permit. Go fight that fight with someone else.

quote:

It's not the job of the government to predict how this individual could hurt his or her self.

Valid point.



As stated before I understand and respect y'all position. Would there be different statistics between 10 states and the mass populous? Who knows.

I just can't help but feel that there is value in the training.

It's an interesting subject to me and I'm curious to see how it plays out.


SpeckledTiger
LSU Fan
Denham Springs
Member since Jul 2010
960 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

I just can't help but feel that there is value in the training.



Have you ever taken a CHP course? It's a crappy cover to allow taxation. It's nothing more than an 8-hour wikipedia review of current gun laws. Sure some instructors are better and more thorough than others, but the CHP course alone does not constitute "gun training" in my opinion. The shooting portion is ridiculously elementary. It's basically, can you hold your hands still while performing a simple motor function? I'd be very curious to see the pass/fail rate of all CHP courses in the state. I'd be willing to bet less than 5% fail and that's not because the participants are so well trained.

Ideally, constitutional carry should be allowed nationwide, but I understand the world is far from ideal. If state issued CHPs are allowed, then they should be met with a matching ruling that the 2nd Amendment protects open carry in all states. Again, I don't 100% agree with it, but it's a compromise that ensures rights are not infringed upon.


Propagandalf
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2010
2161 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
I came here to basically say the same thing the SpeckledTiger said. Anyone who is using the "training" requirement as justification for the permiting process clearly does not possess a CHP and has not been subjected to said "training". The shooting portion is a ridiculously easy and unfailable "test" with no instruction on shooting aside from maybe a few quick tips to the female shooting the lightweight .357 that can't hit a man sized silhouette from 10ft away. In case you're wondering...she passed.


TheBoo
New Orleans Saints Fan
The Bay Area
Member since Aug 2012
1680 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
I've observed a course in it's entirety. The instructor must have been one in a million because the material not only covered law and regulation but also weapon safety and life threatening scenarios that discussed the responsibility of a gun carrier. Then they went through 200 rounds practicing draw and fire techniques.

Again, as stated before, I don't agree with the permit process as it stands but I do support weapons training regarding carrying a concealed firearm. If you are stating that I'm using training to justify the permit process then I must be posting to a brick wall or something.
This post was edited on 12/1 at 3:54 pm


mylsuhat
Chicago Cubs Fan
NOLA
Member since Mar 2008
43295 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
Bill passed the House


LINK


quote:

(CNN)The House of Representatives approved legislation Wednesday loosening gun regulations and allowing those with permits to carry concealed weapons to legally travel with those firearms to other states, a top priority of the National Rifle Association.

The bill passed mostly along party lines, 231-198, with six Democrats supporting it. Fourteen Republicans opposed the legislation, the first major firearms-related bill Congress has voted on since the massacres in Las Vegas and Texas earlier this year.


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AlxTgr
LSU Fan
Kyre Banorg
Member since Oct 2003
55131 posts

re: Concealed Carry National Reciprocity Bill
quote:

lsu1919



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