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Message
re: .40 vs 9mm
Posted on 12/26/12 at 12:37 pm to Ace Midnight
Posted on 12/26/12 at 12:37 pm to Ace Midnight
Jesus, how many "unknown" and "N/A"'s are in that study? That thing has more variables than an advanced algebra class 
2
Posted on 12/26/12 at 1:17 pm to Grunt Actual
40 vs 9 vs 45 The debate will never end. I bought a 40 for work because I bought in to the hype of bigger is better. Having known what I do now I would have got a 9 and been much better off. There's two things that will stop the threat. Damage to the central nervous system and loss of blood. A shot to the spine/head will definitely do the trick, but those are small targets. Loss of blood should be the main goal. Put as many holes in your threat and you will increase your chances in winning.
IMO, all this talk about stopping power is bs. Most gun fights are within just a few feet. The only place to see someone get knocked off of their feet from a handgun bullet is in hollywood. Another thing to consider is round performance through cover/concealment.
Go with a 9 and you will have made a good choice all the way around. Be nice, be courteous and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
IMO, all this talk about stopping power is bs. Most gun fights are within just a few feet. The only place to see someone get knocked off of their feet from a handgun bullet is in hollywood. Another thing to consider is round performance through cover/concealment.
Go with a 9 and you will have made a good choice all the way around. Be nice, be courteous and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
This post was edited on 12/26/12 at 1:21 pm
Posted on 12/26/12 at 1:39 pm to Ole Geauxt
quote:
quote:
Based on your argument, I'd guess you prefer a .22?
why? he said
quote:
the more holes you drill in him, and the bigger those holes are are the better.
Fair enough...
I just wanted to stir a little...
The only handguns I own are 357, 44 and....
a 9mm.
(ableit, it was free)
Posted on 12/26/12 at 1:41 pm to Grassy1
quote:i can't stand people that do that!
I just wanted to stir a little...
Posted on 12/26/12 at 1:43 pm to Grunt Actual
quote:
Jesus, how many "unknown" and "N/A"'s are in that study? That thing has more variables than an advanced algebra class
Grunt - I should have highlighted the "one shot" column - that is the key metric for a handgun cartridge. And I realized after posting it that it does not include .357 SIG data. Chuck Hawks is a good site for ammo, because it pulls from a lot of good source materal - downside, it gets out of date.
Anyway, I was a .45 guy for a long time, recognizing that .45 was the best option in a semi, if you wanted to stop the fight with one shot - again, I'm not making this up, the Gold Standard remains the Federal 357B round - based on all those real world shootings for the decades prior to the 9mm taking over as the primary law enforcement weapon in the US (mid-1980s). Street cops were carrying .357 revolvers and detectives carried .38 special revolvers - that was pretty much a cliche for 40 to 50 years.
Flash forward to the 1986 incident in Miami (and, it wasn't "just" about the 9mm, but it was the scapegoat) - a 10-person shootout, wherein 9 out of 10 participants were wounded, 4 killed, over 100 rounds fired and the 2 bad guys were able to kill 2 good guys and wound (edited to correct - 5) others, despite being shot 16 times (combined), primarily by 9mm and .38 +P rounds.
Now - the bad guys had a rifle (Ruger Mini 14) and a shotgun, as well as a .357 revolver as a backup. The good guys come with shotguns, and a plethora of .357 and .38 revolvers (all with .38 +P ammo) and 9mm pistols.
The 10mm was born out of this desire for a compromise between 9mm and .45 ACP. The .40 S&W is the cut down version of that (it is very similar to the divide between the .44 magnum and .44 special - .44 magnum is almost too much for anti-personnel use, because it overpenetrates - even Dirty Harry confessed to using "light special" rounds in his 6" Model 29, for controllability).
The FBI's analysis concluded the agents needed more marksmanship training (lots of misses), tactical training (4-1 odds should have favored everybody going home and probably 1 or both of the bad guys as well) AND superior firepower. They issue Glock 23s today (and I let them do my research for me, and I've also selected that as my primary carry weapon).
If you're cool with 9mm - stay with 9mm. If you're talking about military, where we have to use ball ammo - I'd go with 9mm because of higher magazine capacity in the same platform. Out of the "big 3" of semi-auto defense calibers, .45 would probably be the best in ball.
With the right loadings, .40 S&W JHP (and specifically, the 135 grain Cor-Bon) is probably superior - but there are outstanding loadings in .357 SIG and .45 ACP. If you decide that magazine capacity, accuracy, or one of the other strengths of the 9mm cartridge make it preferable, just get as close to 90% or 91%, 1-shot stopping numbers and work on shot placement, which segues to my final, most key point.
--1 hit with a .22 pistol is far superior to any number of misses with a 9mm, .40, .45, etc. Shot placement is the deciding factor in an engagement.
This post was edited on 12/26/12 at 2:01 pm
Posted on 12/26/12 at 2:02 pm to Ace Midnight
Good post. This is purely for personal reasons I really wanna get a .40 but I just dont really see a justification for it at the moment. Maybe later down the road but I could probably make better purchases at the moment.
On the military side I've been around and in several "Bearded men's" arms rooms and can say that 9mm and .40 are the standard, definitely on different platforms but that's the run of the mill calibers. I know a couple of guys that get cozy with the armorer and just write in their personal sidearms on the registry log, which is what I'm trying to do. 16 rounds of .45 sounds oh so sweet
On the military side I've been around and in several "Bearded men's" arms rooms and can say that 9mm and .40 are the standard, definitely on different platforms but that's the run of the mill calibers. I know a couple of guys that get cozy with the armorer and just write in their personal sidearms on the registry log, which is what I'm trying to do. 16 rounds of .45 sounds oh so sweet
Posted on 12/26/12 at 2:34 pm to Ace Midnight
The one guy was shot 12 times in the thigh, forearm, foot, hand, etc.
It's not like those would become lethal hits from a .40 vs a 9mm.
The shots that hit their mark ended the fight.
It's not like those would become lethal hits from a .40 vs a 9mm.
The shots that hit their mark ended the fight.
Posted on 12/26/12 at 3:45 pm to Dooshay
quote:
The one guy was shot 12 times in the thigh, forearm, foot, hand, etc.
It's not like those would become lethal hits from a .40 vs a 9mm.
It is not lethality we seek, necessarily (though I'm not running from it when it is the bad guy who's on the receiving end), but CNS overload to make him completely rethink his decision about the fight and/or blood loss to end it quicker. The further from optimal shot placement, the bigger, heavier bullet you need to do that - some of the 9mm advocates' arguments regarding "more holes" didn't seem to be validated by the Miami experience.
quote:
The shots that hit their mark ended the fight.
That is most certainly true - the FBI changed everything in the way they handled tactical encounters, but the 9mm -> 10mm -> .40 S&W (and by ultimate extension the .357 SIG) gets all the press because guys love hardware.
I was skeptical about 10mm ("Isn't that just a super expensive .41 magnum for a semi-auto?"), then .40 S&W ("Isn't that just a 10mm Kurz?") and .357 SIG ("WHY DON'T THEY JUST CHAMBER AN AUTO IN .357 MAGNUM?" - which of course I knew about the Coonan and Desert Eagle, but I was being silly.)
But your point is very valid - shot placement (whether your choice is .32, .380, .38 special, .357 mag, .50 AE, etc.) is the decisive engagement - everything else is just shaping operations. I just want the maximum chance if I get a shot that hits, but is not quite center mass. I believe that .40 S&W gives me that chance, while balancing all the other factors - speed of second shot, ammo capacity, availablity of platforms, etc.
I am quite a bit more accurate with my Sig P245 than my G23, but I am accurate enough with the Glock to comfortably carry it. I'm getting better with the Glock as I get used to it. After all, my wife has a revolver that carries more rounds than a P245.
This post was edited on 12/26/12 at 3:46 pm
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:03 pm to Grunt Actual
quote:
This is purely for personal reasons I really wanna get a .40 but I just dont really see a justification for it at the moment.
If it's just for personal reasons, you don't need a justification!
If so, go ahead and get it! 
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:05 pm to TigerOnThe Hill
Like I said there are smarte purchases to be had at the moment
Once I get off the government paycheck I'll be OT/OB baller status
Once I get off the government paycheck I'll be OT/OB baller status
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:15 pm to Grunt Actual
Just get the .45 and leave the BB guns behind 
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:17 pm to RATeamWannabe
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:19 pm to Grunt Actual
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:21 pm to Grunt Actual
9mm
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:39 pm to KingRanch
I have Beretta 92 9mm
Glock 23 .40
Kimber 1911 45 acp
Beretta is most fun to shoot. 45 is in my truck and I carry the .40
Glock .40 is my least favorite to shoot. Easiest to carry.
Glock 23 .40
Kimber 1911 45 acp
Beretta is most fun to shoot. 45 is in my truck and I carry the .40
Glock .40 is my least favorite to shoot. Easiest to carry.
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:46 pm to Rustontiger43
I wouldn't wipe my arse with a Beretta 92.
I fricking HATE that weapon
I fricking HATE that weapon
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:48 pm to Grunt Actual
quote:
I wouldn't wipe my arse with a Beretta 92.
I fricking HATE that weapon
frickING THIS!!!
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:56 pm to RATeamWannabe
Don't buy one then. That's why they have chocolate AND vanilla ice cream
Posted on 12/26/12 at 5:59 pm to Rustontiger43
Never bought one, Uncle Sam pushed it up on me brah.
In the military you get a big scoop of red white and blue ice cream that tastes like shite and gives you the sensation of a colonoscopy. Then you you get to eat it and say "thank you sir may I have another?"
In the military you get a big scoop of red white and blue ice cream that tastes like shite and gives you the sensation of a colonoscopy. Then you you get to eat it and say "thank you sir may I have another?"
Posted on 12/26/12 at 6:04 pm to Rustontiger43
quote:
Never bought one, Uncle Sam pushed it up on me brah. In the military you get a big scoop of red white and blue ice cream that tastes like shite and gives you the sensation of a colonoscopy. Then you you get to eat it and say "thank you sir may I have another?"
frickING THIS AGAIN
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