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re: Gymnastics - 2024 Paris Olympics

Posted on 7/25/24 at 8:28 am to
Posted by BluegrassBelle
RIP Hefty Lefty - 1981-2019
Member since Nov 2010
106107 posts
Posted on 7/25/24 at 8:28 am to
Just saw the vault for Simone. Wow. That was insane.

And loved the big smile on her face afterward.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/25/24 at 3:34 pm to
Yeah, I noticed that smile as well. Her coach said she hit that vault just as well in warmup. If she does that in the competition it's going to be a loud moment in that arena.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/25/24 at 11:35 pm to
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 3:03 am to
Qualifications start tomorrow, so here is some more information to set that stage:

SCORING IN GYMNASTICS
1 of 2
The Olympic judging panel is divided into three groups: the D panel calculates the Difficulty Score, the E Panel calculates the Execution Score, and the Reference Panel, which corrects any problems with the Execution Score.

In Olympic gymnastics, the score for an athlete is based on two different components; the Execution Score and Difficulty Score.

Each Execution Score starts at 10.0 points. The judges on the execution panel deduct points for errors, such as steps on landings, falls, flexed feet, bent knees, etc. The Difficulty Score starts at zero, and an athlete will earn points for composition requirements, difficulty of the elements and connection value. In women’s gymnastics, each routine receives points for the eight most difficult elements, while in men’s gymnastics, 10 are counted.
 
Team Scores
For the team event in gymnastics, there are two rounds. Qualifications and Finals.

Qualifications
In qualifications, four athletes compete on each apparatus, with the three top scores counting for each team. Those three scores are added together for the team score. From the qualification round, the top-eight teams advance to the finals.

Finals
The top 8 teams from qualifications go to the finals. In the Finals, three athletes from each team compete on each apparatus. All of the scores are tallied, and the highest score wins. Low scores are not dropped.

Individual scores
For each Olympic gymnastics event, nine judges are chosen from a pool of multinational candidates approved by the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG). They are categorized into three groups:
D-panel: This panel calculates the Difficulty Score.
E-panel: This panel calculates the Execution Score.
Reference panel: This panel corrects any problems with the Execution Score.

Two judges sit on the D-panel and determine the Difficulty Score. A routine has a set difficulty score that is calculated starting from 0 and determined by combining the total difficulty value achieved through each skill and connection.

Six judges sit on the E-panel to determine a routine’s Execution Score. This is determined by the execution and artistry of a gymnast’s routine. This score starts at 10.0 and deductions are made for various errors.
The difficulty score and execution score are combined for the final score. A score under the current Code of Points typically lands between 12 and 15 points.

Final Score = [Difficulty + Execution] - Any neutral deductions

Difficulty Score
Both judges on the D-panel individually record a Difficulty Score. This includes the dismount. The two judges compare scores following the completion of a routine and reach a consensus, which becomes the Difficulty Score.

The difficulty value of a routine is determined by totaling the values of the most difficult skills in the routine. The eight most difficult skills are counted for the women and the 10 most difficult skills are counted for the men. Each element is assigned a set difficulty value as outlined in the Code of Points. Elements must be performed as technically described to receive the difficulty value and can only be performed once in an exercise.

Judges also award connection values on every event, except for vault, for unique combinations of elements. These connections are evaluated at 0.1 or 0.2 points.

Composition requirements are the basic skills or elements that must be included and differ by apparatus. The men define ‘composition requirements’ as Element Groups in their Code of Points. If all the requirements are included, a maximum of 2.5 points are rewarded.
Vault is the only apparatus that has a predetermined difficulty score, which is shown to the judges on a scoreboard at the beginning of the runway. The difficulty score is assigned to each vault in the Code of Points.

Execution Score
Six judges on the E-panel independently record a routine’s Execution Score. The highest and lowest scores are dropped, with the four remaining scores averaged for the final Execution Score. The score is determined based on the execution and artistry of a routine with deductions for falls, errors in technique and execution. Deductions range from 0.1 to 1.0. Neutral deductions can be taken for stepping out of bounds, violating time requirements, as well as attire or podium violations.
 
Final Score
The gymnast's final score is determined by totaling the Difficulty Score and the Execution Score, then subtracting any neutral deductions.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 3:05 am to
SCORING IN GYMNASTICS
2 of 2

Penalties
In gymnastics, penalties come in the form of neutral deductions. These deductions range from 0.10 to 0.50 and are subtracted from a gymnast's final score. Examples of neutral deductions:
• 0.10 - Stepping out of bounds with one foot, warming up on the podium before the start of a routine, finishing a routine past the 90-second time limit, etc. ?
• 0.30 - Stepping out of bounds with two feet, not saluting the judges before or after a routine, the gymnast not having their nation's emblem on their uniform or competing without their competition bid number pinned to their uniform, etc. ?
• 0.50 - A coach spotting a gymnast during the routine. ?
Penalties can be disputed by athletes and coaches by submitting an inquiry.

Inquiries
An inquiry is a verbal challenge of a routine’s score. It is followed by a written inquiry that must be submitted before the end of the rotation. The challenge can only be brought forward after the gymnast’s final score is posted and before the end of the next gymnast’s routine. A fee is required for filing an inquiry and is returned if the inquiry is upheld. It can be resolved by using video review.
A score can be raised, lowered, or remain the same as a result of an inquiry.

What is a perfect score in gymnastics?
The Code of Points was introduced in 2006 to allow for a more open-ended scoring system. It removed the ‘Perfect 10’ (earned by a 10.0 execution score) but that doesn’t mean a gymnast can no longer receive a perfect score for their routine.
Now, a perfect score for a gymnast would be receiving no deductions from the judges, while also completing their planned routine with full difficulty. Under the open-ended scoring system, no gymnast has received a perfect score. 

Can you get a zero score? Yes.
The lowest score you can receive in gymnastics is a zero. This is most commonly seen on the vault. A gymnast can receive a zero if their hands do not touch the vaulting table, they fail to land feet first, they perform the same vault twice, they receive significant spotting assistance during the vault or fail to use the safety collar for round-off entry vaults. The gymnast is allowed to stop mid-run and attempt their vault again as long as their feet do not touch the springboard and their hands do not touch the vault table. If they do, this counts and the gymnast will receive a zero. 
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 3:15 am to
QUALIFICATION ROUND

Qualification is how teams get to the Team Final, and how individual gymnasts get into the All-Around and Event Finals.

Every gymnast, whether competing for a team or as an individual, competes in the qualification round. Men and women have qualification on separate days – one day each. Gymnasts are divided into groups, called subdivisions, by random draw. Gymnasts competing individually are drawn into “mixed groups” of five or six, with gymnasts from the same country staying together (for instance, if Panama sends two individual gymnasts, they might be placed into a group with three individual gymnasts from Spain). “Mixed groups” are randomly put into subdivisions with gymnasts who are competing with a team. A subdivision, therefore, might consist of the U.S. team, the French team, and two mixed groups. During each subdivision’s time slot, the mixed groups within that subdivision will rotate from one apparatus to another until they have completed them all (the groups are not mixed up – in the example above, the U.S. team would start on one apparatus and stay together, as would the French team and each of the mixed groups). Within each team, the order of the gymnasts competing on each apparatus is decided by the national team coaches. 

Team Qual - 4 up, 3 count
A team consists of five athletes, a change since the Tokyo Games, where teams were composed of four athletes. In qualifying, four athletes can compete in each event, with the top-three scores counting (this format is often verbally said as "four up, three count").

An athlete attempting to qualify for the all-around final has to perform on all four events (for women) or six events (for men) in order to get a cumulative all-around score. Otherwise, they will only be in contention to make individual event finals and/or team finals if they are competing as part of a team.
 
The men will be divided into three subdivisions and the women will be divided into five subdivisions for qualification. For each gender, the 12 teams and mixed groups of individuals will be divided evenly amongst the subdivisions. All four or six apparatus are in use at once, and there are no “byes.” So a team (or a group of individuals) proceeds in Olympic order from event to event with no bye rotations. The event in which a team starts is determined by random draw.

Gymnasts do one routine per apparatus, with an exception on vault – if a gymnast wants to make the individual event final on vault, they must do two different vaults, the scores of which are averaged, to be in contention. In this case, only the score of the first vault will count toward the team score and/or all-around score.
 
In all, a team’s final qualifying score in the men’s team competition is made up of 18 scores — the top-three scores from six different apparatus. The women’s team competition is made up of 12 scores — the best three scores from the four different apparatus. Individual all-around scores are the cumulative scores from one athlete on all four or six apparatuses.
 
Scores do not carry over from Qualifications to Final.

Scores from qualification (which do not carry over to the finals) determine the following outcomes for both genders: 
1. The top-eight teams qualify for team finals.
2. Top 24 individual gymnasts qualify for the all-around finals, with a maximum of two gymnasts per NOC (country).
3. The top eight individual gymnasts on each apparatus qualify for the respective event finals, with a maximum of two gymnasts per NOC per event. 
4. Final individual all-around placings 25th and lower will be determined.
5. Final team placings 9th -12th will be determined.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 8:13 am to
Lineup for the men, for Qualifications tomorrow.
* = two vaults
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This post was edited on 7/26/24 at 8:38 am
Posted by LaLadyinTx
Cypress, TX
Member since Nov 2018
7120 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 9:26 am to
quote:

The gymnast is allowed to stop mid-run and attempt their vault again as long as their feet do not touch the springboard and their hands do not touch the vault table. If they do, this counts and the gymnast will receive a zero. 


Yes, but they rarely would actually stop mid run. You see them just run by the apparatus. They just can't stop that quickly. I've seen plenty times in many levels of competition where they do a run by if they feel their steps are off towards the end. Sometimes, if a lower level gymnast is struggling with this and it's been a while since warm up, the coach might even tell them to do this.
Posted by LaLadyinTx
Cypress, TX
Member since Nov 2018
7120 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 9:49 am to
quote:

Gymnastics is an odd sport and sort of insular, despite being international.


It's a very small world. If you're younger daughter trains at a gym where elites train or one owned by a famous coach, you get to see a lot of it.

quote:

I always ask myself: why were fathers OK with their daughters going to these gyms that were so closed off to parents?


Nobody outside of that gymnastics world ever understands this. When my daughter started pre-team, about 3 months after starting gymnastics, you realize your world is different from others in the gym. The coaches and owners make you feel special. Your daughter has been chosen and is different. Next step is getting you to give them control. When they are preteam, it's not so much because it's 2-3 days a week for 1.5-2 hours. A year or so later they are on team and in the gym 12 hours a week (4 3 hour practices ) and she is so excited about it. She's probably 7-8 years old. It's getting to be a lot of time to stay and watch the whole time. Also, practices are getting more intense. It's not all smiles and fun. It's hard conditioning that hurts. It's sitting in splits on each leg for a while and it hurts. It's getting rips on your hand and having them bleed. A lot of young kids will look over at mom when it hurts and struggle a little. Normal, you say. But not allowed in gymnastics. If that happens too much, the coach will come tell you how much easier it will be for your daughter if you aren't there and just come watch a little and then you'll be impressed with what she's learned.

The coaches start teaching you as parents that the girls are better off if you aren't there. What better environment for bad things to happen?!?! Instead of being like you and wondering how it could have happened this way, everyone I know in the gymnastics world said of the Nassar scandal..."I'm not at all surprised! It was a perfect environment for this to happen!" Bascially, they make you feel like you are privileged to have her on team and you want to do everything best for her, so leave it in the hands of the coaches. Don't make waves. There's a lot of favoritism so you want the coach to like you. It's a weird thing. It seems to have gotten better now, but my daughter was competing from about 1999-2006 and it was bad then. But on the other hand, you go to a meet at the Ranch (there were a few every year...Judge's Cup in the fall for compulsories was often at Karolyi's. Bela would be out in the field that was their parking lot directing traffic. He felt warm and accessible and has a big personality, giving praise and hugs.

quote:

I used to never think there was a "sexualization" of gymnasts. When I watch it, I am thinking about the human performance aspect: the biomechanics, physics, neuroscience, motor learning and skill development, etc. But, over time I came to realize the sexualization thing is very real.


Very real. Good coaches were protective of their girls this way. But predators look for professions that give them opportunities. Gymnastics was ripe with opportunity.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 10:53 am to
quote:

Yes, but they rarely would actually stop mid run. You see them just run by the apparatus. They just can't stop that quickly. I've seen plenty times in many levels of competition where they do a run by if they feel their steps are off towards the end. Sometimes, if a lower level gymnast is struggling with this and it's been a while since warm up, the coach might even tell them to do this.


Yeah. I don't know if you ever saw this but at a world's some time ago, the Russian team was in a good spot for a medal. One of the gymnasts tripped a bit and instead of running by vault she ran right up to it and touched it. They had to take the zero score and Russia immediately fell to last place, off the podium. The next up on vault was Zamo. She lands her vault and she's crying because she knows what just happened.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 11:44 am to
quote:

It's a very small world. If you're younger daughter trains at a gym where elites train or one owned by a famous coach, you get to see a lot of it.


The documentaries I watched have been my only introduction to it. I had no idea how much of an "industry" it was / is.

quote:

Your daughter has been chosen and is different. Next step is getting you to give them control.


I grew up in the 'stick & ball' sports and saw a little bit of this - you get picked for an all-star team or invited to a "select" camp etc. It starts to stratify people and it sounds like gymnastics was all of that, but at another level.

quote:

A lot of young kids will look over at mom when it hurts and struggle a little. Normal, you say. But not allowed in gymnastics. If that happens too much, the coach will come tell you how much easier it will be for your daughter if you aren't there and just come watch a little and then you'll be impressed with what she's learned.



I heard a little of this in those documentaries. Almost like grooming the parents.

quote:

The coaches start teaching you as parents that the girls are better off if you aren't there. What better environment for bad things to happen?!?!


Exactly. What I heard, particularly about the coach in NJ for instance, is that doors get locked and parents are not just encouraged to let the kids get immersed in training, but parents are locked out and prevented from being around their kids. That is the part that is weird - to me it seems like parents would freak out over that. But, I see what you're saying in how the environment gets manipulated, the culture of it all.

quote:

Instead of being like you and wondering how it could have happened this way, everyone I know in the gymnastics world said of the Nassar scandal..."I'm not at all surprised! It was a perfect environment for this to happen!"


After watching those documentaries, and especially hearing how people like Bob Geddert treating things, I had the same exact thought - none of it was a surprise.

quote:

There's a lot of favoritism


Saw this in the sports I played as well. If you were not a favorite, it didn't matter how good you were.

quote:

But on the other hand, you go to a meet at the Ranch (there were a few every year...Judge's Cup in the fall for compulsories was often at Karolyi's. Bela would be out in the field that was their parking lot directing traffic. He felt warm and accessible and has a big personality, giving praise and hugs.


I always felt the Karolyi's were probably 'innocent' with regard to the Nassar stuff. Someone mentioned how Marta kicked a man out of the gym because he had a gymnast sit on his lap. I got the impression that they were doing what was done to them and what was accepted in Romania and were harsh, but not sexually abusive or turning a blind eye to it. It seemed to me they would just call USAG and ask for support for a camp and USAG was like, "sure we'll send Larry", and Bella and Marta just thought that was the end of it. I may be wrong, but that was the impression I got.

quote:

Very real. Good coaches were protective of their girls this way. But predators look for professions that give them opportunities. Gymnastics was ripe with opportunity.


There are some good videos out there of predators explaining how they find victims. Fits in perfectly with what you're describing.
Posted by SteelerBravesDawg
Member since Sep 2020
43337 posts
Posted on 7/26/24 at 10:46 pm to
quote:

Yeah, I noticed that smile as well. Her coach said she hit that vault just as well in warmup. If she does that in the competition it's going to be a loud moment in that arena.

I wanna see it just to see the racist rednecks lose their collective shite.
Posted by Dawgsontop34
Member since Jun 2014
45583 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 12:31 am to
Gonna watch it on tape delay tomorrow morning.

Start out on Pommel which is always a disaster for us.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 4:04 am to
Tomorrow morning will be Women's Qual and USAG announced the lineups
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Posted by UncleLester
West of the Mississippi
Member since Aug 2008
9030 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 4:05 am to
quote:

POTUS2024


Fantastic Info. Thanks for assembling it.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 4:06 am to
And here we go...Paul Juda on pommel. Qualifications are underway.
Score: 13.600
Next up is Fred Richard
Score: 13.633
Brody Malone, falls off the horse, but it's 4 up and top 3 scores, but this might hurt him for all-around qualification, but I think he'll still qualify for all-around finals.
Score: 12.100
Next up is Nedoroscik and he is best on the team at this event. He's taken off his classes and has his game face on. Big routine for Team USA.
Score: 15.200, very good score
This post was edited on 7/27/24 at 4:19 am
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 4:41 am to
Men with a total of 42.433 so far after one rotation.
Paul Juda leads on rings.
Score: 13.400
Fred Richard
Score: 13.500
Brody Malone
Score: 14.233
Asher Hong
Score: 14.633

Rotation 2 complete
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 4:48 am to
Male gymnast from Iran doing same vault that Simone is doing. Interesting to compare men and women on the same vault. Simone's was better than this guy, if you compare her podium training vault to his. Same was seen with Maroney at the 2012 Olympics. Her vault was better and more impressive than one of the males that did the same vault.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 5:01 am to
Meaningless but USA is 2nd place right now.

Starting Rotation 3, on vault.
Paul Juda leading off again.
Score: 14.533
Brody Malone
Score: 13.833
Fred Richard
Score: 13.933
Asher Hong up next, will do 2 vaults, because he is looking to qualify for event final.
Scores: 14.700, 14.433
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 7/27/24 at 5:23 am to
Rotation 4, parallel bars
Leading off is Brody Malone
Score: 14.533
Paul Juda
Score: 14.033
Asher Hong
Score: 14.300
Fred Richard
Score: 14.433
Team USA is very solid so far
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