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re: Real bad condo collapse in Surfside, FL
Posted on 7/1/21 at 1:48 pm to baldona
Posted on 7/1/21 at 1:48 pm to baldona
quote:
Dayum I didn't realize this. So going from that other video, it seems possible a vehicle hitting a column in the garage could have caused this? Seems most certainly that would have been well thought out though?
if I was a betting man... "car crashing into column" being the cause of the failure would not be where I would place my money
right now I'd just go with "kicking maintenance too far down the road" as my bet
1
Posted on 7/1/21 at 1:54 pm to rt3
I am looking for more info to confirm
1. Why the pool deck collapsed into the garage area (column failure? slab failure? why did these fail? Water/corrosion? Sinkhole? Physical damage from vehicles? Overloading/design flaws?)
2. Did the pool deck collapse damage the building compression members (columns) to cause its collapse?
I believe, based on current facts that we know, the pool deck area close to the building collapsed into the garage and damaged at least one column holding up the building. Once one column is at minimum cracked, or at most totally pushed down, the rest of the columns cannot support the weight of that part of the building now placed on them. Once a section of the building collapses, it damages the columns holding up the other parts of the building, which is why we saw a staggered collapse (looked like 3 stages to me with area next to pool deck first, then the area close to the road, then the side facing the beach last).
1. Why the pool deck collapsed into the garage area (column failure? slab failure? why did these fail? Water/corrosion? Sinkhole? Physical damage from vehicles? Overloading/design flaws?)
2. Did the pool deck collapse damage the building compression members (columns) to cause its collapse?
I believe, based on current facts that we know, the pool deck area close to the building collapsed into the garage and damaged at least one column holding up the building. Once one column is at minimum cracked, or at most totally pushed down, the rest of the columns cannot support the weight of that part of the building now placed on them. Once a section of the building collapses, it damages the columns holding up the other parts of the building, which is why we saw a staggered collapse (looked like 3 stages to me with area next to pool deck first, then the area close to the road, then the side facing the beach last).
Posted on 7/1/21 at 1:58 pm to WizardSleeve
quote:
1. Why the pool deck collapsed into the garage area (column failure? slab failure? why did these fail? Water/corrosion? Sinkhole? Physical damage from vehicles? Overloading/design flaws?)
The pics from the pool guy 2-days before it collapsed showed a ton of damage to, what I assume, is the bottom of the pool slab (exposed, cracked concrete w/corroded rebar).
quote:
2. Did the pool deck collapse damage the building compression members (columns) to cause its collapse?
I would imagine that along with all of the other damage that has been well documented, if the decking did indeed collapse, then it certainly didn't help matters.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 2:00 pm to WizardSleeve
The 2018 report apparently hated some of the planter boxes on the pool deck... saying they were too close to 2 of the support columns that appear to have been the 1st to fail
That report said the planter boxes could allow water intrusion that could impact the integrity of the columns
That report said the planter boxes could allow water intrusion that could impact the integrity of the columns
Posted on 7/1/21 at 2:11 pm to rt3
quote:
if I was a betting man... "car crashing into column" being the cause of the failure would not be where I would place my money
right now I'd just go with "kicking maintenance too far down the road" as my bet
While I don't disagree, I was thinking more in terms of the straw that broke the camel's back. There hasn't been any major concrete or structural issues documented. Everything was closer to minor then major issues that has been reported. It just seems to be there is a piece of all of this missing.
Like the building had a bunch of minor issues, but something happened that night to make it snap and crumble. Seems very very suspect that there would not have been clear major issues for it to collapse like that.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 2:15 pm to rt3
quote:
The 2018 report apparently hated some of the planter boxes on the pool deck... saying they were too close to 2 of the support columns that appear to have been the 1st to fail
That report said the planter boxes could allow water intrusion that could impact the integrity of the columns
I've seen planters like these before have issues at a condo complex. Which seems absurd to me because its a basic freaking idea. Properly slope it, waterproof it, and have a basic drain. Simply enough idea.
But in this case, everything I have seen is that any major water intrusion issues would cause major concrete damage. Nothing I've yet seen documents this.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 3:12 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:
are condo owners an equal part owner of the whole building?
Not equal... assessments normally based on size of unit... bigger units pay more.
quote:
When they come knocking for a $50k assessment to cover expensive maintenance or repairs on the whole building, what happens when people don’t have that money to give them? A lien on the unit? If they never sell it and never pay the assessment, where does the money come from to do the needed repairs?
Yes, they can lien. For major items like this, the association would borrow the money and then basically allow the owners to pay over time (with interest).
Posted on 7/1/21 at 3:15 pm to Penrod
quote:
But we are getting better about this, not worse. Design and maintenance/inspection are all getting better.
Our ability to do it has gotten better.
Our desire to pay for it has gotten worse.
Just look around.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 3:17 pm to WizardSleeve
quote:When the pool deck collapsed, did the pool itself fall/fail? If so, that is a lot of water dumping into an area very quickly with a lot of force.
Did the pool deck collapse damage the building compression members (columns) to cause its collapse?
We see the damage flash floods can do to roads and such in the canyons out west. If all of that pool water was released against one or two columns in the parking garage, isn't there a good chance it washed them out and that was the domino that started everything else falling?
Posted on 7/1/21 at 3:18 pm to real turf fan
quote:
about what a woman heard and saw and decided to take her two children and run away from the building, seven frickin' minutes before the video of the collapse began.
She had a ground floor unit.
This happens at noon... not only are fewer people probably in the building... but more people are out and about, see some signs like she saw, and run for their lives.
In the middle of the night... Most of these people never had a chance.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 3:24 pm to PJinAtl
quote:
When the pool deck collapsed, did the pool itself fall/fail? If so, that is a lot of water dumping into an area very quickly with a lot of force.
No, there are videos from experts saying that water was from the sprinkler piping in the garage, with blueprints to illustrate. The pool was in the corner of the property. This initial collapse of the pool deck was almost right in the middle of the property, where the pool deck meets the base of the building. In other words where the planters of concern I the 2019 report are located, more or less.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 4:42 pm to rt3
quote:
quote:
I didn’t think the pool deck was on the ground level?
it's not
everything sat on top of the building's parking garage
YouTube - Building Integrity channel - analysis of video from the minutes before the building collapsed
ETA: the pool deck was collapsing into the top level of the parking garage
Just to be clear, the pool and pool deck itself is indeed at ground level. There was a single level of parking that spread out under that deck and the building itself. Parking spaces abutted or came close to abutting the underground walls of the pool itself. You can see this deck in relation to the pool in the original plan shown at the 10:16 mark of the youtube video.
The pool and pool walls themselves were not destroyed in the collapse and water was still in the pool the day after. I would imagine that corner of the property stayed intact due to the piling (or concrete foundation?) structure beneath the actual pool was not structurally tied to the pilings of the building and parking deck.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 5:24 pm to baldona
quote:
There hasn't been any major concrete or structural issues documented. Everything was closer to minor then major issues that has been reported. It just seems to be there is a piece of all of this missing.
That is what is puzzling, but I have a WAG (wild arse guess) of what may have happened.
This is a simplistic explanation, but typical mid-rise construction in the Miami area relies on concrete friction columns (as opposed to pilings that sit on bedrock) due to the area's "bedrock" being a porous and weak limestone. The frictional support for the column is generated by compacting the sand both under as well as around the piling.
It would be possible these pilings failed due to that frictional support being compromised over a long period of time by water washing out the sand necessary for the frictional support. This water couldve been the result of 40 years of storm water runoff into the poorly designed drainage system of the sublevel garage, a leaking water main, poor site prep at construction, or all of the above.
Again, this is only a guess but it would explain why there weren't any glaring structural issues visible above ground before the collapse.
Posted on 7/1/21 at 9:51 pm to WizardSleeve
quote:
No, there are videos from experts saying that water was from the sprinkler piping in the garage, with blueprints to illustrate. The pool was in the corner
Also, you can look at post-collapse photos and see the pool is actually in decent shape. It looks like the water only drained a step or two, and was still holding the rest.
ETA- I missed Blanco's post above with a better picture.
This post was edited on 7/1/21 at 10:20 pm
Posted on 7/1/21 at 11:02 pm to Basura Blanco
I'm with y'all, there's got to be more than just corrosion as the triggering event, especially without local failures giving warning. I was still leaning roof construction until seeing how much earlier that garage video was recorded before the collapse. But it's got to be more than just exposed rebar.
I did read in one of the articles that the piles for this building do go down to the limestone bedrock. I know nothing about piles on limestone.
However, even if they didn't, piles in sand or other non-cohesive soils are still typically bearing piles, with a only a small percentage of strength coming from friction.
The compacted sand under the bottom of the pile has enough strength and overburden that the piles act as if they were on bedrock.
Plus they design these to withstand a hurricane completely washing the sand out from underneath to some design depth.
quote:
typical mid-rise construction in the Miami area relies on concrete friction columns (as opposed to pilings that sit on bedrock) due to the area's "bedrock" being a porous and weak limestone. The frictional support for the column is generated by compacting the sand both under as well as around the piling.
I did read in one of the articles that the piles for this building do go down to the limestone bedrock. I know nothing about piles on limestone.
However, even if they didn't, piles in sand or other non-cohesive soils are still typically bearing piles, with a only a small percentage of strength coming from friction.
The compacted sand under the bottom of the pile has enough strength and overburden that the piles act as if they were on bedrock.
Plus they design these to withstand a hurricane completely washing the sand out from underneath to some design depth.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 11:01 am to rt3
quote:Great, informative video.
YouTube - Building Integrity channel - analysis of video from the minutes before the building collapsed
Posted on 7/2/21 at 11:03 am to PJinAtl
quote:
When the pool deck collapsed, did the pool itself fall/fail? If so, that is a lot of water dumping into an area very quickly with a lot of force.
That makes a lot of sense. I wonder about it.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 12:25 pm to beerandt
quote:
I did read in one of the articles that the piles for this building do go down to the limestone bedrock. I know nothing about piles on limestone.
I missed that article, and same here, I have no experience with limestone or bedrock substrates. I read an article interviewing an engineer about general construction practices, but nothing specific on the collapsed building.
quote:
The compacted sand under the bottom of the pile has enough strength and overburden that the piles act as if they were on bedrock.
I am probably splitting hairs, but I do believe friction plays a factoring role, but not that of compression required for a proper set. Granted, my experience is limited to wood piles in residential construction in Galveston, where the sand contains a percentage of loamy mud.
Typically, 10" square treated wood pilings are driven, with half above grade and half (13-16') below grade. Once placed in an augured hole, the first few blows with the pile driver sends them 4-5 inches down. The last few blows before final set depth only results in a ~1/4" drop. Amazing how much compressive strength they can achieve with sand.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 12:33 pm to beerandt
quote:
I did read in one of the articles that the piles for this building do go down to the limestone bedrock. I know nothing about piles on limestone.
Limestone is subject to sinkholes... wonder if way underneath there was a limestone failure underneath multiple columns?
Probably a longshot reason, I know that part of Florida isn't as sinkhole prone as most of the state.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 2:40 pm to LSUBoo
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