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re: Real bad condo collapse in Surfside, FL

Posted on 6/28/21 at 4:14 pm to
Posted by ShaneTheMaster
Tampa, FL
Member since Nov 2009
3273 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 4:14 pm to
It’s almost like someone crashed into one of the pilings in the parking garage.
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
36158 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 9:54 pm to




Miami Herald
quote:

Two days before condo collapse, a pool contractor photographed this damage in garage
quote:

“He thought it was waterproofing issues,” the contractor said of the staff member. “I thought to myself, that’s not normal.” He said Jose told him they pumped the pool equipment room so frequently that the building had to replace pump motors every two years, but he never mentioned anything about structural damage or cracks in the concrete above.
quote:

In the pool equipment room, located on the south side of the underground garage, the contractor saw another problem — exposed and corroding rebar in the concrete slab overhead. He snapped some pictures and sent them to his supervisor along with a note expressing concern that the job might be a bit more complicated than expected. He worried they would have to remove pool pipes to allow concrete restoration experts access to repair the slabs.
quote:

CBS4’s Jim DeFede interviewed William Espinosa, a Champlain maintenance manager from the late 1990s, who said ocean saltwater would make its way into the underground garage — so much that “pumps never could keep up with it.”
quote:

Mohammad Ehsani, an engineer and concrete restoration expert who invented QuakeWrap technology, a way to reinforce old concrete columns, reviewed the contractor’s photos from the pool equipment room. “You can see extensive corrosion of the rebars at the bottom of the beam. That is very serious,” Ehsani said, commenting it was the worst damage he had seen documented in the building so far. The equipment room runs along the southern wall of the building — an area that did not collapse.
quote:

“If the condition of the beam in the pool guy’s photo is something that was also happening under the building, that is a really major concern,” Ehsani said. In that case, it “absolutely” could have contributed to the collapse. However, he cautioned against rushing to conclude that all beams in the building showed similar levels of damage to those exposed to chemicals from the pool. The 2018 report that documented “severe” structural damage to concrete in the garage under the pool deck did not include photos of anything nearly as alarming as what the pool contractor documented, Ehsani said.
Posted by Yeahright
On a big sphere out there.
Member since Sep 2018
2288 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 10:16 pm to
When in Rome - That's some good info right there that I haven't heard. Thanks.
Posted by East Coast Band
Member since Nov 2010
66950 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 10:28 pm to
There's probably a dozen buildings within a 10 block radius of that building that have similar concrete deterioration and exposed rebar.
Perhaps there was an execeptional flaw in the building's design that put a lot of the stress upon those very exposed areas.
Posted by beerandt
Member since Jan 2020
320 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 10:40 pm to
quote:

The equipment room runs along the southern wall of the building — an area that did not collapse.


quote:

Mohammad Ehsani, an engineer and concrete restoration expert who invented QuakeWrap technology, a way to reinforce old concrete columns,


Yeah, it's not like he's got anything to gain out of stirring up fear.

I agree with him that the exposed rebar picture is more concerning than anything in the 2018 report. But it still doesn't look that bad.

Without cracks, that's water infiltration until the rebar rust/swells enough to pop off the concrete cover. But it doesn't look like the section is under any noticable strain. And I don't see a single flexure crack. Plus it's in the top webbing of that beam (which includes the wall) so it would likely be in compression.

Which is consistent with "needs waterproofing, but not failing."
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
36158 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 10:51 pm to
Interesting; thanks for providing some good insight in this thread. I think the article did a good job of balancing out the info with the paragraph mentioned above that seems to echo what you’re saying:
quote:

“If the condition of the beam in the pool guy’s photo is something that was also happening under the building, that is a really major concern,” Ehsani said. In that case, it “absolutely” could have contributed to the collapse. However, he cautioned against rushing to conclude that all beams in the building showed similar levels of damage to those exposed to chemicals from the pool. The 2018 report that documented “severe” structural damage to concrete in the garage under the pool deck did not include photos of anything nearly as alarming as what the pool contractor documented, Ehsani said.
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
36158 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 10:53 pm to
With what little info we have so far, and with your apparent industry knowledge, do you have your own personal theory about what caused such a catastrophic failure, seeing as the report didn’t mention anything that in itself could have caused the collapse? Do you lean more toward it being an original design flaw or a maintenance issue or a little bit of both? It’s just going to be really interesting to find out what exactly sets this building apart from all of the other buildings, and what sort of perfect storm aligned to cause this to happen to this building and not any other buildings in the area, including buildings with similar designs built around the same time.

This Live Science article seems to have a good summary of possible causes, all of which have been mentioned in this thread.
This post was edited on 6/28/21 at 11:14 pm
Posted by WestSideTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2004
4862 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 11:05 pm to
It may not have collapsed yet but I’d have been leery of servicing/replacing any of the equipment on that wall.


Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
36158 posts
Posted on 6/28/21 at 11:08 pm to
Engineering News Record

More interesting speculation to peruse, with the non-surprising conclusion that it will take a while to sort out what exactly happened:
quote:

Thanks to a surveillance video, photos, a 2018 building-system survey and the original 1979 plans, structural engineers have pieced together the probable sequence of the fatal progressive collapse of part of the 12.5-story Champlain Towers South residential condominium, north of Miami Beach in Surfside, Fla. But the initiating event on June 24 that brought down a wing, about 150 ft long, of the 40-year-old reinforced concrete structure remains a mystery. “I’m trying to find the trigger,” says Allyn Kilsheimer, founder of KCE Structural Engineers, who is investigating the collapse for the city.
quote:

The reinforced concrete building has flat-plate floor slabs. Flat plates are relatively thin concrete slabs supported directly on columns. The building is lightly braced by shear walls.

The video shows that the failure occurred lower down in the central south-facing perimeter of the building, which is a fat L in plan. The failed long leg of the L extended east to west on the north side of the footprint. “It is possible the failure started higher up in the building on the interior and cascaded downward but it is not visible in the video,” says Jack Moehle, a professor of structural engineering at the University of California, Berkeley.

The video also shows a “very rapid vertical collapse of the interior portion of the building, with relatively little apparent side sway,” says Moehle.
quote:

The north side of the long leg followed the south side collapse, almost immediately. “That is apparent from the video,” says Glenn Bell, a forensic structural engineer and director of Collaborative Reporting for Safer Structures (CROSS-US), a division of the American Society of Civil Engineers' Structural Engineering Institute.

Next, the east end of the building, nearest the Atlantic Ocean, got pulled toward the midsection to its west.

The video shows the east end standing for a short while after the midsection collapsed, gradually leaning toward the midsection. Likely there was an imbalanced load due to loss of support from the portion of the building that collapsed, which dragged the remaining portion sideways until its gravity load-carrying capacity was exhausted and it also collapsed, says Bell. In the second part of the collapse, the floors are a little offset from one another because of this effect, he adds.
quote:

There are at least three other theories about the trigger of the progressive collapse, beyond the pool deck slab: column failure, slab failure due to punching shear or failure of the pile foundation system. Kilsheimer, Bell and others speculate there may have been more than one contributing factor, as in a perfect storm.

Progressive failure is caused either by columns that fail axially due to axial over-stress or shear damage that progresses to axial failure or punching shear failure, says Moehle.

In punching shear, one or more of the building’s flat slabs develops a shear failure around the column and drops relative to the column.

If there is no continuous bottom reinforcement in the slab passing over the columns—a detail not required in 1981—then the slab can move downward relative to the column, redistributing load to adjacent slab-column connections, which in turn can fail. A slab that eventually lands on the floor below it overloads that floor system, and there is more punching shear, says Moehle, who has done extensive testing of concrete structures.

If the columns were the trigger, then it is likely but not certain that the collapse started at the bottom of the building where the axial loads are largest, adds Moehle. If it was the slab-column connection, then the failure could have started just about anywhere in the building and progressed downward in a vertical collapse that extended across the floor and down to the base.
quote:

Some photos of the debris suggest that the collapse involved, at least as a secondary mechanism, punching shear failures. “This could have been a secondary aspect of the collapse, with the primary cause of the collapse being something else,” says Moehle, who adds that his observations are “very preliminary speculation.”

Other possible contributing factors: It is “plausible” that sea spray over 40 years increased the chloride content of the concrete, which, after reaching a critical point, starts corrosion of the rebar, adds Moehle. There could have been a more recent acceleration of corrosion, which accelerated the loss of column strength.

Differential settlement across the footprint of the building can cause the redistribution of internal forces and can over-stress some members.

“It will be a long time before this has been thoroughly studied and thoughtfully considered” to give engineers the confidence to draw lessons about what happened, says Moehle.
This post was edited on 6/28/21 at 11:16 pm
Posted by Ezra Reed
Member since Jul 2020
1010 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 1:55 am to


I don't understand why they dug the giant trench beneath the collapsed building.

Obviously it is important to the rescue of miracle survivors, but I don't understand it's purpose.
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
36158 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 10:13 am to
Miami Herald
quote:

Crews used heavy equipment to dig the trench, which is described to be 125 feet long, 20 feet wide and 40 feet deep. It was created for two purposes:

One of the reasons is to let rescuers search for survivors in other parts of the pile with their dogs, cameras, sonar and infrared technology. It was also part of an effort to combat a “deep” fire that Miami-Dade County Mayor Daniella Levine Cava described over the weekend as “hampering” search efforts.

Levine Cava said the smoke was the “biggest barrier” for the search-and-rescue mission. She said crews worked nonstop under the rubble to stop it, using infrared red technology, foam, water and other tactics to contain the fire and minimize the smoke, which had spread through the pile.
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
78988 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 11:20 am to
quote:

She said crews worked nonstop under the rubble to stop it, using infrared red technology, foam, water and other tactics to contain the fire and minimize the smoke, which had spread through the pile.


Whoever went in there to put out the fire is alpha as hell.
Posted by LSUBoo
Knoxville, TN
Member since Mar 2006
103450 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 11:31 am to
I can't imagine surviving the collapse only to get roasted alive. That would be fricking hell.
Posted by cable
Member since Oct 2018
9735 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 11:35 am to
Or drown
Posted by LSUFanHouston
NOLA
Member since Jul 2009
40191 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 11:50 am to
So perhaps this wasn't a construction failure, but rather, a maintenance/upkeep one?

Honestly, would that be a surprise? Our society is terrible at maintenance. We don't maintain our roads, our bridges, our bodies, our homes, etc. We don't ever do any preventive maintenance, and we have to wait until the shite gets real bad before we try to fix anything.

They were about to spend 15 million on repairs... and could have spent 9 million a few years ago, but put it off.

I have a feeling we are going to see more stuff like this in the future unless we change the way we think about stuff.
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
33036 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 12:04 pm to
quote:

So perhaps this wasn't a construction failure, but rather, a maintenance/upkeep one?


Looks like it.
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
36158 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

I have a feeling we are going to see more stuff like this in the future
I think you are right.
Posted by Jack Bauers HnK
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2008
6041 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 12:38 pm to
quote:

They were about to spend 15 million on repairs... and could have spent 9 million a few years ago, but put it off.


Unlike a hoa neighborhood where every homeowner is only responsible for their house and then the shared expenses for insurance, common areas, etc., are condo owners an equal part owner of the whole building? When they come knocking for a $50k assessment to cover expensive maintenance or repairs on the whole building, what happens when people don’t have that money to give them? A lien on the unit? If they never sell it and never pay the assessment, where does the money come from to do the needed repairs?
Posted by WestSideTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2004
4862 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 1:56 pm to
Daily Mail

COST AND TIMELINE OF CHAMPLAIN TOWERS REPAIRS

2018 cost: $12million

That is the initial cost given by Frank Morabito, who was hired to conduct a review for the building's recertification process.

Morabito was rehired in 2019 and he conducted a more extensive review.

A committee was then formed to decide who was going to do the work

2021 cost: $16million

This was how much the work had increased by because the damage had become worse.

This figure also reflects the engineer's fee for doing it.

Cash on hand: $707,000

Cash needed: $15.5million

What each owner owed:

$80,000-$336,000 depending on apartment size

Owners were given until July 1 to decide how to pay. The work bids were due to end on June 1 but bids were still being taken for the concrete project

How to pay

Lump sum or in monthly installments of $500 or more for 15 years

Units in building: 136
Posted by tigerpimpbot
Chairman of the Pool Board
Member since Nov 2011
68752 posts
Posted on 6/29/21 at 2:14 pm to
quote:

Owners were given until July 1 to decide how to pay


Damn
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