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re: Real bad condo collapse in Surfside, FL
Posted on 6/27/21 at 11:12 pm to LegendInMyMind
Posted on 6/27/21 at 11:12 pm to LegendInMyMind
quote:
Due to that, would that report even be able to be used in any investigation or civil suits going forward?
Maybe as a defense that there was no obvious major structural issue that was noticed and ignored.
But also it's not the most professional report. It's half the length of the one I had done for my house before buying it.
And the mech PE said "do to corrosion" in the first paragraph of his separate, but attached report.
The mechanical and electrical items cost more than structural, and were already getting worked on, so it's not obvious that they were being cheap or delaying work because of money.
1
Posted on 6/27/21 at 11:18 pm to Penrod
quote:How do you get expertise in an area without practicing in it?
There very well could be criminal charges. An engineer who practices in an area in which he does not have proper expertise has committed a crime.
Example: I am an electrical engineer with plenty of experience in controls and power at or below 35,000 volts. If I designed a one million volt transmission line I would have committed a crime because I have no demonstrated expertise in that. Nothing prevents me from designing it and stamping it except adherence to the Professional Engineering Rules.
Posted on 6/27/21 at 11:19 pm to beerandt
I’ll bet real money the owners don’t have near enough liability insurance to pay for this. This looks like it could be a clear case for negligence since we have engineering reports coming out that the building was structurally flawed and no one was doing anything about it.
Folks are on these types of condos are paying out the nose for property and wind coverage but I guarantee they never contemplated a collapse and the amount of money they’re going to get into with this type of occurrence.
Folks are on these types of condos are paying out the nose for property and wind coverage but I guarantee they never contemplated a collapse and the amount of money they’re going to get into with this type of occurrence.
This post was edited on 6/27/21 at 11:21 pm
Posted on 6/27/21 at 11:44 pm to Klondikekajun
quote:
It will be interesting to see if the residents were apprised of the cost
They were.
quote:
and if they voted on it
They did.
First payments were due on the assessment for repairs this coming Thursday. Total was to be $15 million for repairs and cosmetic work to update the building. The assessments ranged from $80k for a single bedroom to more than $300k for the largest units.
Posted on 6/27/21 at 11:58 pm to SquatchDawg
quote:
This looks like it could be a clear case for negligence since we have engineering reports coming out that the building was structurally flawed and no one was doing anything about it.
What report says that? The 2018 one has a recommendation for repairs and maintenance, but not for anything close to what caused this.
The biggest "structural flaw" was they suggested replacing 2500sqft of garage decking. That's nothing. The proposal suggested ~$350k for landscaping, ~$250 for that slab repair.
And they were in progress of doing the work suggested.
Stop blindly listening to Anderson Cooper standing in a ditch.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 12:05 am to Gravitiger
quote:
How do you get expertise in an area without practicing in it?
You don't. You ease into projects of increasing specialty, or collaborate, or work under someone else's supervision.
You could go as far as doing the work yourself and hiring another PE to check and stamp until you're comfortable with it.
It's self regulated, as long as you're still within your licensed discipline. Part of that licensing is trusting you to know your own limits.
Just be prepared to demonstrate your expertise to the licensing board or a judge, if it comes to that.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 12:30 am to beerandt
Do they think the 152 unaccounted for people are in the rubble or somehow oblivious to this and not paying attention? That’s a ton of people potentially wiped out in this.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 12:32 am to beerandt
quote:
The 2018 one has a recommendation for repairs and maintenance, but not for anything close to what caused this.
I agree the report offers no smoking gun pertaining to the collapse. The one item that hints at structural integrity is the waterproofing failure causing structural damage to the concrete slab issue referenced on page 7 of he the report.
I am not a civil engineer, but I wouldn't believe that compromised concrete decking at ground and underground level could bring down a concrete pile building. Is there any construction method in which even a post tension slab at ground level is utilized as an integral part of the structural integrity of the building? Also, if the engineer determined that the failed waterproofing was that big of an issue, I would assume his report would've mentioned potential issues to the structural integrity of the building itself and not just the concrete decking.
I totally agree that the report itself was rather odd. I would be curious to know what the engineering firm charged for a field survey consultation that referenced washing cars and tapping with a golf club as an inspection method.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 6:31 am to Gravitiger
quote:
How do you get expertise in an area without practicing in it?
You get the expertise by practicing under the direction of a licensed engineer who is an expert.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 6:37 am to beerandt
quote:
The biggest "structural flaw" was they suggested replacing 2500sqft of garage decking. That's nothing.
No, that’s not “nothing”. The integrity of the concrete is critical because it is what protects the reinforcing steel from corrosion. Concrete is strong under compression, but it is useless in tension. It is the steel that handles that. Once the steel is rotted there is no longer complete structural member there.
I’m an EE, and I don’t have expertise in this, but I’ve heard enough structural engineers in meetings over my 36 year career to have learned this much at least.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 6:44 am to Basura Blanco
Truth be told, there are thousands of buildings that have "structural issues" that probably need to be taken care of.
Now how bad they really are, and what ultimately could happen, no one knows.
When it comes to paying for the high end recommendations, which for some places could easily run into the millions, most owners will end up balking on doing them.
$75k to epoxy a few cracks in concrete slabs and columns? We'll just assess the owners for 500 each.
$1.5M to demo and replace load bearing structures, possibly closing the building for months? I doubt you could get that passed at $10k per owner.
Look at our nation's bridges. You hear all the time how so many are in need of major repairs.
Every president passes some "highway infrastructure " type bill to address these issues. But, we're still in the same situation with crumbling brides.
Now how bad they really are, and what ultimately could happen, no one knows.
When it comes to paying for the high end recommendations, which for some places could easily run into the millions, most owners will end up balking on doing them.
$75k to epoxy a few cracks in concrete slabs and columns? We'll just assess the owners for 500 each.
$1.5M to demo and replace load bearing structures, possibly closing the building for months? I doubt you could get that passed at $10k per owner.
Look at our nation's bridges. You hear all the time how so many are in need of major repairs.
Every president passes some "highway infrastructure " type bill to address these issues. But, we're still in the same situation with crumbling brides.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 7:02 am to East Coast Band
Had not paid much attention since the original report. 9 dead and 150 missing? Damn! Can't imagine anyone unaccounted for is still alive. That sucks.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 7:07 am to The Boat
quote:
Do they think the 152 unaccounted for people are in the rubble or somehow oblivious to this and not paying attention? That’s a ton of people potentially wiped out in this.
They are either dead in the rubble, or living life under a new name in Argentina.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 7:09 am to When in Rome
quote:
NPR has obtained minutes of a Nov. 2018 meeting that shows a Surfside town inspector met with residents of the building, and assured them the building was "in very good shape." That directly conflicts with an engineering report from five weeks earlier, which warned that failed waterproofing in a concrete structural slab needed to be replaced "in the near future."
The cause of the building collapse remains unknown, but according to the report, the structural slab was deteriorating because it was flat instead of sloped. That meant the water didn't drain off the concrete's waterproofing quickly, but rather pooled there until it evaporated.
if this ultimately turns out to be a major contributing factor to the collapse, that firm has to feel so relieved
anyone who has written down anything regarding the structure of that building the past 10+ years has to be puckered up right nowq
Posted on 6/28/21 at 7:21 am to Basura Blanco
quote:
I am not a civil engineer, but I wouldn't believe that compromised concrete decking at ground and underground level could bring down a concrete pile building.
Foundations hold up buildings. If the underground parking garage decks failed due to water leaking in, the whole building is coming down.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 11:09 am to ABucks11
quote:
Foundations hold up buildings
No shite. The "foundation" in this building is a system of concrete piles, likely friction piles, not the parking decks. The parking decks may indeed be a structural component, but they are not the main foundational support system of the building.
quote:
If the underground parking garage decks failed due to water leaking in, the whole building is coming down.
Not necessarily.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 12:00 pm to SquatchDawg
10th body recovered
Twitter link to video of press conference where announcement was made
quote:
CBS4 Miami @CBSMiami
WATCH: Mayor Daniella Levine Cava confirms a tenth body has been recovered from Surfside condo collapse. There are now 135 people accounted for and 151 people unaccounted for. Complete coverage at LINK
Twitter link to video of press conference where announcement was made
Posted on 6/28/21 at 12:04 pm to jscrims
quote:
However, if the property manager is supposed to be responsibility for the upkeep and maintenance, you can surely bet the property management company will be named in the upcoming suit.
That’s not how condo ownership works. The owners are 100% responsible and in fact in most cases actually pay through their HOA dues the liability insurance for the CAM (community association manager). The CAM works for the HOA board and essentially for the owners, they are the company paid to do the work from collecting dues to calling vendors to making sure the vendors show up. But the CAM doesn’t make any decisions on their own or hold any responsibility of their own that’s not given to them from the HOA board. The HOA board is responsible for overseeing the CAM and voting on the decisions that need to be made.
Major decisions are usually voted on by the entirety of the association members, but in the least the HOA board which hears input from the owners. The system is built to vote so there’s not direct liability unless there was something like gross negligence.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 12:26 pm to baldona
It's going to be interesting to see how many other condo associations come to light that are sitting on or deferring maintenance.
Many of these beach front structures are aging and will be expensive to address.
I suspect this will ultimately affect the condo market, as nobody is going to like the assessments that will be forthcoming.
Many of these beach front structures are aging and will be expensive to address.
I suspect this will ultimately affect the condo market, as nobody is going to like the assessments that will be forthcoming.
Posted on 6/28/21 at 4:05 pm to Penrod
quote:
No, that’s not “nothing”. The integrity of the concrete is critical because it is what protects the reinforcing steel from corrosion.
2500 sqft of decking, being the total amount of structural replacement called for in a building that size is nothing. Even if it were to totally fail, it shouldn't be enough to bring down the building, and not without first showing giant red flags, way beyond anything in that report.
Waterproofing is important, but exposed rebar isn't a sign in and of itself of being anywhere near failure. Just that it needs to be waterproofed. In fact, replacing that decking is more likely to be because it's easier than waterproofing what's already there, not because they think it's on the verge of failing. Especially since they mention it being flat.
quote:
Concrete is strong under compression, but it is useless in tension. It is the steel that handles that. Once the steel is rotted there is no longer complete structural member there.
No shite, except for the useless part. RC depends on concrete being weak in tension, specifically so that significant cracks show before the steel fails. It's a feature, not a bug. Maybe the silly engineers aught to take that into account when determining modes of failure.
Especially when that cause (corrosion) is the primary cause of RC failure. The steel doesn't corrode instantly. As the effective cross section of the steel reduces over time, stress increases, strain increases, and cracks form in width directly proportional to the internal stresses in the steel.
The design specifies minimum and maximum strain before total failure, which means specific sizes of cracks in specific places.
If those cracks aren't there in those sizes, "rotting" steel isn't causing that member to approach failure.
No matter if it needs waterproofing or not.
quote:
I’m an EE, and I don’t have expertise in this, but I’ve heard enough structural engineers in meetings over my 36 year career to have learned this much at least.
You've heard exactly enough to know that jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel. With about the matching amount of confidence.
I suspect you're imagining an abrupt brittle failure, as if putting a load on an unreinforced slab for the first time. Besides loading capacity, It's the primary thing you check against during design. You ensure no abrupt or brittle failure modes. Even due to corrosion.
Obviously something went wrong here, but it's not in that report. If it were, you'd see a bunch of pictures like this, instead of just some exposed rebar.
This post was edited on 6/28/21 at 4:10 pm
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