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Started By
Message
re: Appeals Court: Confederate monuments in NOLA to be removed.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 11:54 am to TbirdSpur2010
Posted on 3/7/17 at 11:54 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
GTFOH
There's nothing in the constitution that explicitly states that states can't exit the Union. The states left when they thought they were being under represented in the federal government. In the south, it was literally perceived as a second American revolution.
It's not as cut and dry as you might think it is. No confederates were ever convicted of treason. In a way, it was very patriotic, and in the same mold as those who fought in the Revolutionary War.
I don't think anyone here condones/defends slavery. I think many that fought for the CSA felt the same way back then as well. The majority of men who fought for the CSA weren't slaveowners. Yes, they were racist, and yes, they thought blacks were inferior. Everyone did though. Many Union leaders firmly believed that while equality was right, blacks were still inferior.
1
Posted on 3/7/17 at 11:58 am to rmnldr
quote:
There's nothing in the constitution that explicitly states that states can't exit the Union.
Never argued otherwise.
quote:
In a way, it was very patriotic
No, that's bullshite southern apologetics. Don't give me that.
quote:
The majority of men who fought for the CSA weren't slaveowners.
Never said they were. Also, irrelevant.
quote:
Many Union leaders firmly believed that while equality was right, blacks were still inferior.
Granted. I actually intimated as much in the "ask a black guy" thread.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:06 pm to TbirdSpur2010
Fwiw I am a citizen of the state of Louisiana first and foremost. I will always hold close the values that this country was built upon. Unfortunately those values are not reflective of our current government. We need a complete over haul.
Eta: You are a product of revionist history moron.
Eta: You are a product of revionist history moron.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:20 pm to tigersownall
You're a product of shitty misplaced "cultural" pride, son.
I'm an American first and foremost. Texan second (very proud of that, as well). Hell, I once took an oath to defend this country from all enemies both foreign and domestic. The confederacy was an example of the latter, and especially given how great of a nation we've become since, I'm so thankful the secession attempts failed
I'm an American first and foremost. Texan second (very proud of that, as well). Hell, I once took an oath to defend this country from all enemies both foreign and domestic. The confederacy was an example of the latter, and especially given how great of a nation we've become since, I'm so thankful the secession attempts failed
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:24 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
FWIW they've determined the pyramids were built with paid labor.
GET THE frick OUT!!!'
Mexicans got to Egypt!!?
Some hard working bastards right there.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:25 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
No, that's bullshite southern apologetics. Don't give me that.
No, I will give you that. You can't compare today's times to those in the mid 1800s. It WAS patriotic. The constitution gives great power to the states of the union. Key word: the states. The first and foremost governmental power that people answered to then was their state government. Washington D.C. was so far away to anyone in the South (except Virginia) that there was 100% absolutely no allegiance to the federal government to a lot of Southerners. The South was a completely different world compared to the North.
What the South did was rise up against what they perceived as a tyrannical power, just as the Thirteen Colonies did. We can look today and see that they were wrong, but in those days they didn't have the same culture, knowledge, or understanding that we do today. You're looking at this huge, complex, and often undocumented struggle between two completely different regions in the 1860s and trying to equate it to what you know now. You can't do that.
I know that you're black, I know that this subject is very emotional because some of your ancestors might have been slaves, but history is not something you can experience and learn from if you view it in 20/20 hindsight.
quote:
I'm an American first and foremost. Texan second (very proud of that, as well). Hell, I once took an oath to defend this country from all enemies both foreign and domestic. The confederacy was an example of the latter
This is a prime example of what I mean by trying to equate your personal experiences to those in the 1860s.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:26 pm to TbirdSpur2010
I am not your son. I thank you for your service but you are 
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:26 pm to JS87
quote:
white supremacy monuments
the ignorance surrounding this issue is quite honestly...pathetic.Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:27 pm to tigersownall
quote:
I am not your son.
You keep on getting sonned itt though
And I am correct, actually
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:33 pm to rmnldr
quote:
It WAS patriotic.
It was not.
quote:
We can look today and see that they were wrong
Indeed.
quote:
You're looking at this huge, complex, and often undocumented struggle between two completely different regions in the 1860s and trying to equate it to what you know now.
Actually, no. The USA as it exists today as the world's preeminent power would not have been possible had the confederates achieved their ill-conceived goals. I take issue with anyone who tries to justify their cause. I can understand it without rationalizing it. We can acknowledge history without honoring those who stood against our unification as a nation.
quote:
I know that you're black, I know that this subject is very emotional because some of your ancestors might have been slaves
My blackness honestly has nothing to do with it. My wife is not black and shares the same sentiments as I. My perspective is as an American that is damn happy the USA was not rent asunder, and does not see the need to glorify those who sought to do so. This is a practical debate for me, not an emotional one (hell, I have both white and black ancestors
). This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:35 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
You're a product of shitty misplaced "cultural" pride, son.
I just fear where it stops?
Go after every slave owner? Ever? That's renaming every American monument ever. No?
What wealthy white landowner did not own a slave?
And I cringe to think what all of these sites will be renamed. Jackson Square for instance? To what? Unity Square? Hope Square? Did they not trade slaves in the square or hang them? I am honestly asking. I do not know the full history of Jackson Square or the piece of land that was there long before it being named Jackson Square.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:38 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:
where it stops?
Museum displays and history books are reminder enough, IMO. I'm not the "erase all references" type. Hell, I actually think the flag most often associated with the Confederacy is aesthetically pleasing, believe it or not
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:39 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
You keep on getting sonned itt though
A do what?
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:39 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:
Go after every slave owner? Ever?
Nah.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:41 pm to TbirdSpur2010
Christ! I didn't even make the point that we are talking about a former POTUS. And a man who died 20 years before the civil war.
I, of course, am mainly fixing on Jackson Square.
I, of course, am mainly fixing on Jackson Square.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:42 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:
I do not know the full history of Jackson Square or the piece of land that was there long before it being named Jackson Square.
Before it was named Jackson Square, it was called the "Place d'Armes." Because it was a gathering space for military troops.
From wikipedia: The Place d'Armes was the site for public execution of criminals and rebellious slaves during the 18th and early 19th centuries.
LINK
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:43 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
frick the confederacy
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:44 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Museum displays and history books
The problem is the way they teach the civil war. That's why we are at this point today. I didn't hear an honest teaching of the civil war until I hit 300 level history in college.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:44 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Actually, no. The USA as it exists today as the world's preeminent power would not have been possible had the confederates achieved their ill-conceived goals. I take issue with anyone who tries to justify their cause. I can understand it without rationalizing it. We can acknowledge history without honoring those who stood against our unification as a nation.
I'll say it again. You're looking at this situation as if it were happening in modern times. We ALL know that slavery is evil today, and many knew it back then as well.
The problem is when people act is if honoring great leaders such as Robert E. Lee is traitorous. Lee fought for the US. He was an officer in the US army. He rejected Lincoln's proposal to become the head of the Union Army at the outbreak of the war in favor of fighting for his native state of Virginia.
PGT Beauregard was a Louisiana native who led the CSA forces at the first battle of Bull Run. He later went on to create a school for former slaves.
Both men deserve recognition. Both men were worthy of statues at the time that these statues were created. Robert E. Lee was a great American general who fought what he believed was an honorable fight, as an honorable man.
While I wouldn't be in favor of erecting a new monument for Lee, I'm not in favor of taking it down. It has been standing in New Orleans for over 100 years. It's just as much a part of the city as any landmark is. The one removal of a statue I will not, however, protest against is the removal of the Jefferson Davis statue. I firmly believe that a monument of him has absolutely no place in this city and his actions/thoughts should be taught to future generations for the evil they were.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:47 pm to rmnldr
quote:Nah, just not worthy of a statue.
The problem is when people act is if honoring great leaders such as Robert E. Lee is traitorous.
quote:A lot of people do this. We don't need statues of all of them.
Robert E. Lee was a great American general who fought what he believed was an honorable fight, as an honorable man.
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