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A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and present
Posted by fr33manator on 5/9/22 at 11:47 pm4011
Prepping a brisket with a friend tonight who was born in Apartheid S. Africa and grew up in communist Poland. We got to talking, as we do, about big concepts, mainly the role of men in societies with a shortage of fathers. And how men in these societies, if they want them to grow and prosper, have to step up into roles that aren’t necessarily theirs in order to raise a generation of young men who aren’t their sons.
We started talking about post World War Europe and the Orient. And how many fathers never came home to their sons but, seemingly, the men in that society managed to deal with that lack of natural fathers, and how important that is in those situations especially.
So, not to ramble too Long, I’ll get to the meat.
How important is it to give guidance to young men in societies where fathers are lacking, for one reason or another? How was it done in the past when war and other hardships were the reason, and how can that apply to society today?
Is it Important that some men step in and raise sons not of our loins? And if not, who will?
We complain constantly about the results of societies that lack fathers. This was the case before in history, how did they deal with that? How can we learn and apply those lessons now, and perhaps right a sinking ship? Can it be done?
Surely there were men who Weren’t your fathers, (for those of us lucky enough to have them) who helped mold and shape you. Coaches, neighbors, uncles and teachers.
And for those who had stepfathers or are stepfathers, what lessons were learned?
I think the main bullet point here is someone has to step up, or young people are doomed.
What are your thoughts?
We started talking about post World War Europe and the Orient. And how many fathers never came home to their sons but, seemingly, the men in that society managed to deal with that lack of natural fathers, and how important that is in those situations especially.
So, not to ramble too Long, I’ll get to the meat.
How important is it to give guidance to young men in societies where fathers are lacking, for one reason or another? How was it done in the past when war and other hardships were the reason, and how can that apply to society today?
Is it Important that some men step in and raise sons not of our loins? And if not, who will?
We complain constantly about the results of societies that lack fathers. This was the case before in history, how did they deal with that? How can we learn and apply those lessons now, and perhaps right a sinking ship? Can it be done?
Surely there were men who Weren’t your fathers, (for those of us lucky enough to have them) who helped mold and shape you. Coaches, neighbors, uncles and teachers.
And for those who had stepfathers or are stepfathers, what lessons were learned?
I think the main bullet point here is someone has to step up, or young people are doomed.
What are your thoughts?
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by CockyTime on 5/9/22 at 11:54 pm to fr33manator
Over/under 12 people that actually read that whole thing?
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by FLBooGoTigs1 on 5/10/22 at 12:05 am to fr33manator
Statics prove that children that have fathers in their lives get better educations, live longer and have a better chance of not being incarcerated.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by armsdealer on 5/10/22 at 12:09 am to fr33manator
My father existed...
That is about the extent of him passing on fatherly father things.
I really don't care about that though, what pisses me off is he was a good grandfather then became an absent grandfather when he found some new pussy. Well I use to get pissed about it because my oldest would ask about paw paw, he doesn't ask about paw paw anymore so he easily slips my mind months at a time.
What was the question again?
That is about the extent of him passing on fatherly father things.
I really don't care about that though, what pisses me off is he was a good grandfather then became an absent grandfather when he found some new pussy. Well I use to get pissed about it because my oldest would ask about paw paw, he doesn't ask about paw paw anymore so he easily slips my mind months at a time.
What was the question again?
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by PeteRose on 5/10/22 at 12:12 am to FLBooGoTigs1
quote:
Statics prove that children that have fathers in their lives get better educations, live longer and have a better chance of not being incarcerated.
I believe kids with father 2x-10x less likely to:
Drop out of school
Drug use
Teenage pregnancy
Runaway
STDs
Join gangs
But the media will cherry pick a case where a child is successful raised by a single mom and use that to draw conclusion that a father is not necessary. Why even keep stats if an anomaly is treated as the norm?
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by fr33manator on 5/10/22 at 12:13 am to FLBooGoTigs1
quote:
Statics prove that children that have fathers in their lives get better educations, live longer and have a better chance of not being incarcerated.
Correct. And we were talking about places where vast numbers of adult males were wiped out by war and other calamities. And how the men that survived and came home in those places had to play an unfortunate but necessary role for those societies to recover.
Through adoption, roles as stepfathers and role models for children who didn’t have theirs for whatever reason. I’m sure there are posters here who grew up or had parents grow up in such circumstances and wonder about their experiences.
Surely there’s something to be gleaned from the question and the answers that follow.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by FLBooGoTigs1 on 5/10/22 at 12:16 am to PeteRose
Yeah how is that single mom family on government assistance working out for a particular group? Oh wait Oprah and Lebron call it oppression but I call it more worried about collecting a government paycheck than having a father in the picture.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by fr33manator on 5/10/22 at 12:17 am to armsdealer
quote:
What was the question again?
I’ll expand based on your answer. In the absence of raising and teaching by your father, which men raised you? Did any step up to fill that void?
And, based on that, how did it affect your role as a father to your children and other children that came into your life? Did you look differently at those without that guidance and try to positively affect their upbringing?
Have you ever had someone ( I don’t know how old you are) come back and say “thank you for giving a shite”?
These are general questions for the board, not just you specifically.
This post was edited on 5/10 at 12:18 am
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by Rick9Plus on 5/10/22 at 12:29 am to fr33manator
As far as taking on the role of stepparent - I don’t know about in cases where the father (or mother) has died, but i know from experience that in cases of divorce or never-marriage, it’s hard to raise a child that’s not yours if the absent (or mostly absent) parent is still living and breezes in and out to frick shite up. Stepparenting is hard, and it’s a tough role to navigate. Your spouse has to fully have your back, as there’s a fine line between not doing enough and “overstepping.” If the father of the child(ren) in question is dead or completely absent, i would think the role of the man who steps in would be a lot clearer.
Now as far as mentoring fatherless children in your community, such as coaching or big brother/big buddy-type role, or being an involved uncle or role model to kids who don’t live with you - we definitely could use all the help we can get in our communities.
Now as far as mentoring fatherless children in your community, such as coaching or big brother/big buddy-type role, or being an involved uncle or role model to kids who don’t live with you - we definitely could use all the help we can get in our communities.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by Lima Whiskey on 5/10/22 at 12:37 am to fr33manator
quote:
seemingly, the men in that society managed to deal with that lack of natural fathers
Do we know that to be true? Pure question.
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re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by ThreauxDown on 5/10/22 at 12:47 am to fr33manator
My dad died when I was 7 and I never had a true step dad until I was 18. My mom worked nights as a waitress so funds were extremely tight and I was rarely supervised outside of school. Didn’t help that my mom has always been the laid back, cool mom, so I never had anyone to push me, virtually no incentive to do well in school other than to get my teachers or coaches off my back.
My middle school football coaches probably had the biggest impact on me not turning into a piece of shite. The only thing I cared about at the time was my starting spot on the team. Getting benched, doing up-downs and even getting chewed out in front of my teammates worked damn well to teach me consequences
Now I’m mid to late 20s, degree, no kids, student loans paid off, new construction as my first home, and no dept other than my mortgage.
I think people that grew up with both parents around and involved don’t realize how much of a privilege it is.
My middle school football coaches probably had the biggest impact on me not turning into a piece of shite. The only thing I cared about at the time was my starting spot on the team. Getting benched, doing up-downs and even getting chewed out in front of my teammates worked damn well to teach me consequences
Now I’m mid to late 20s, degree, no kids, student loans paid off, new construction as my first home, and no dept other than my mortgage.
I think people that grew up with both parents around and involved don’t realize how much of a privilege it is.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by hellsu on 5/10/22 at 12:48 am to fr33manator
Percentage of single parent households in the U.S. by race
64%- Black 40%- Hispanic 24%- White 16%- Asian. The numbers speak for themselves when compared to crime statistics. It is a given that the vast majority of the single households are lead by women. When young males begin to reach puberty without that male in the household to discipline them can tend to run roughshod over the mother figure. The black community is decimated with this break down of the family unit and it reflects in the crime and incarceration stats.
64%- Black 40%- Hispanic 24%- White 16%- Asian. The numbers speak for themselves when compared to crime statistics. It is a given that the vast majority of the single households are lead by women. When young males begin to reach puberty without that male in the household to discipline them can tend to run roughshod over the mother figure. The black community is decimated with this break down of the family unit and it reflects in the crime and incarceration stats.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by fr33manator on 5/10/22 at 12:55 am to ThreauxDown
Great post and thanks for sharing. And you are right.
But it seems that through sports, and having men around who gave enough of a shite to instill ethics and purpose into you benefitted you. A good coach is a kind of father figure to a team, and sometimes the only one they have.
To address another poster, some cursory research shows that war orphans were a real and persistent issue and required many resources from the state and charity organizations to address. From what little I’ve read so far a vast majority were “half-orphans”, meaning the mother survived but the father was gone and the post war years were particularly hard requiring assistance and for others to step into these roles.
Trade schools, apprenticeships and fraternal organizations filled some of the void but vagrancy and child gangs were a real issue.
The deeper I dive the more interesting the question becomes.
quote:
I think people that grew up with both parents around and involved don’t realize how much of a privilege it is
But it seems that through sports, and having men around who gave enough of a shite to instill ethics and purpose into you benefitted you. A good coach is a kind of father figure to a team, and sometimes the only one they have.
To address another poster, some cursory research shows that war orphans were a real and persistent issue and required many resources from the state and charity organizations to address. From what little I’ve read so far a vast majority were “half-orphans”, meaning the mother survived but the father was gone and the post war years were particularly hard requiring assistance and for others to step into these roles.
Trade schools, apprenticeships and fraternal organizations filled some of the void but vagrancy and child gangs were a real issue.
The deeper I dive the more interesting the question becomes.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by fr33manator on 5/10/22 at 12:59 am to CockyTime
quote:
Over/under 12 people that actually read that whole thing?
You’re probably better taking the under. It’s exceedingly lengthy and verbose. But, perhaps, some souls can muscle through and contribute and we can all learn a bit from their testimony. And If not, my fool’s time has been spent all the same
This post was edited on 5/10 at 1:40 am
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by ThreauxDown on 5/10/22 at 1:22 am to fr33manator
quote:
But it seems that through sports, and having men around who gave enough of a shite to instill ethics and purpose into you benefitted you. A good coach is a kind of father figure to a team, and sometimes the only one they have
Absolutely. To answer your question though, I think that male role models are more important that most people realize, when it comes to a boy growing up without a father.
In the past, I’d say finding a male role model was a little easier because communities were smaller and more engaged. Kids likely spent more time in the presence of their friends fathers which in a lot of cases probably acted as a good role model.
In todays age, the kid without a father gets handed an Xbox controller or iPad because it’s the cheapest and easiest means of entertainment.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by BOSCEAUX on 5/10/22 at 2:49 am to fr33manator
quote:
And we were talking about places where vast numbers of adult males were wiped out by war and other calamities. And how the men that survived and came home in those places had to play an unfortunate but necessary role for those societies to recover.
On average I’m guessing back then families were much larger (more kids to work the land and what not) so more male uncles, cousins, and such to keep your arse in line and teach you to be a good man.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by Purple Spoon on 5/10/22 at 3:14 am to BOSCEAUX
My only contribution to this thread is this,
Government has replaced the role of father to tens of millions in this country and that is terrible for everyone.
Government has replaced the role of father to tens of millions in this country and that is terrible for everyone.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by rantfan on 5/10/22 at 3:29 am to fr33manator
quote:
How important is it to give guidance to young men in societies where fathers are lacking,
Personally, I help coach youth sports. My goal isn't to win games. Its just to be there for those kids who want to become MEN so badly. The moms that bring their boys know we coaches are there to mentor their boys.
This post was edited on 5/10 at 3:30 am
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by baobabtiger on 5/10/22 at 3:42 am to fr33manator
The greatest example is the African American community. Prior to the great society they were the strongest family unit in our country and on the path that the Hispanic community was on. One more generation and they would have been educated, assimilated, and successful.
Now 75% are born into single mother homes and their culture is in a death spiral.
The one thing that changed is the role of the male in their families.
Now 75% are born into single mother homes and their culture is in a death spiral.
The one thing that changed is the role of the male in their families.
re: A conversation about the role of men in societies with a lack of fathers, past and presentPosted by ScubaTiger on 5/10/22 at 4:16 am to fr33manator
My Dad lost his father when he was a 14 year old in an industrial accident. He quit school to work at the same company where his dad had died to help support his Mom and 3 siblings. I believe this experience had a huge effect on him as he developed a strong work ethic that lasted his entire lifetime. In spite of his limited education, he managed to work his way into middle management and left a estate of $3M+ when he passed in 2002. He was nearly an absent father to me due to his always being at work, but he felt that his primary job was to provide for his family. I learned most of my parenting skills from friends' dads by observing their methods and results.
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