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Started By
Message
This team might need Elfrid back almost as much as AD
Posted on 11/2/18 at 7:23 am
Posted on 11/2/18 at 7:23 am
I think the Pels would have beaten Denver and Portland if they had had Payton. He provides much better defense than Frazier/Frank/Clark and keeps Jrue and his mediocre handle from trying to do too much. I looked at the stats and was shocked Jrue only had 3 TOs last night, it easily could have been a lot more.
As down as most people are on the team right now, I see a team that has fared much better without AD than they have in the past. It's just a shame Elfrid went down at the same time so the improvement could be seen in the W/L record.
As down as most people are on the team right now, I see a team that has fared much better without AD than they have in the past. It's just a shame Elfrid went down at the same time so the improvement could be seen in the W/L record.
8
Posted on 11/2/18 at 7:52 am to TigerinATL
With a healthy Elfrid and AD we beat Denver and Portland, no doubt. With just one of them, I dunno...
Posted on 11/2/18 at 7:56 am to TigerinATL
Payton helps, but not sure he is a the difference between an extra win or two here or not. Debatable how much Paytons game has looked good because of his own improvement or because he's throwing lobs to Davis....i.e. the Rondo renaissance last year
What I see is a team that has no interior defense when Davis sits. And they don't have the firepower off the bench to keep up with the points they surrender. As much as we all know they need a wing, a rim protector helps them more IMO at this point
What I see is a team that has no interior defense when Davis sits. And they don't have the firepower off the bench to keep up with the points they surrender. As much as we all know they need a wing, a rim protector helps them more IMO at this point
Posted on 11/2/18 at 7:57 am to TigerinATL
quote:Calm down
This team might need Elfrid back almost as much as AD
Posted on 11/2/18 at 8:07 am to TigerinATL
It’s the team’s lack of depth that gets us every year. You cannot push this pace that uncle Al wants to play with a 7 man rotation.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 8:08 am to eyeran
I’m not saying Payton is as good as AD, but the depth behind Payton is worse. You at least have Mirotic and Randle to step up in the front court. Not having Payton weakens the perimeter defense and puts more responsibility on Holiday when he’s already asked to do so much.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 8:22 am to TigerinATL
Fact. Few teams could overcome Tim Frazier play meaningful minutes. Likable dude but he's got no shot out there. Jrue and Elfrid are huge improvements to the peremiter defense than anything they can put out there now.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 8:26 am to TigerinATL
quote:
depth behind Payton is worse.
Based on Mirotic and Randle are doing w/o Davis, that just might not be true.
Payton looked real good over 4 games. He's got a career that says the gap between him and Frazier/Jackson et Al is closer than the gap between Davis and Mirotic/Randle
Posted on 11/2/18 at 8:27 am to corndeaux
quote:
What I see is a team that has no interior defense when Davis sits. And they don't have the firepower off the bench to keep up with the points they surrender. As much as we all know they need a wing, a rim protector helps them more IMO at this point
Love Niko but he seems more of a liability on defense this year than his time with the Pels last season.
This post was edited on 11/2/18 at 8:28 am
Posted on 11/2/18 at 8:31 am to TigerinATL
I get what you're saying. I'm just not ready to place an AD-level of importance on what Payton brings.
AD still changes everything, and makes everybody look better. Our perimeter defense looks better if the they're driving at Davis and not Randle/Mirotic. Gobert doesn't treat our frontline like preschoolers if Davis is there. That entire game is different.
AD still changes everything, and makes everybody look better. Our perimeter defense looks better if the they're driving at Davis and not Randle/Mirotic. Gobert doesn't treat our frontline like preschoolers if Davis is there. That entire game is different.
This post was edited on 11/2/18 at 8:32 am
Posted on 11/2/18 at 8:57 am to TigerinATL
I agree, sort of. I think we win last night, and possibly against Denver with Elfrid. The Utah game may have gone different if someone could check Rubio a little.
Our defensive rotations were horrible last night, Portland were getting wild open 3's all night. AD helps that out, but Elfrid is a lot better defender than Frazier.
Moral of the story, with Elfrid and AD we are a top 3 seed, without them we are fighting to make the playoffs.
Our defensive rotations were horrible last night, Portland were getting wild open 3's all night. AD helps that out, but Elfrid is a lot better defender than Frazier.
Moral of the story, with Elfrid and AD we are a top 3 seed, without them we are fighting to make the playoffs.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 9:12 am to lionward2014
quote:
Elfrid is a lot better defender than Frazier.
this is questionable. Payton certainly looks the part more than Frazier and clearly has better tools, but that hasn't translated to impactful defense in his career.
a busted jumper is not the only reason he's on his 3rd team in 5 years in the league.
Frazier is a small backup pg. he's not great, but chances are good that Murray, Harris, Curry, Lillard, Thompson, McCollum make Payton look pretty helpless too.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 9:14 am to lionward2014
quote:
Portland were getting wild open 3's all nigh
McCollum was 0-3
Lillard was 4-7
I'll take that any night.
Aminu/Layman/Nurkic/Swanigan/Collins/Turner they were 9-17. That's ridiculous. Most gameplans would say if those guys want to take 17 threes, whether open or not, let them. You don't expect them to hit over 50% of them. Aminu only took 1 corner 3, which is where he shoots well from. He sucks from everywhere else, just not last night.
Letting Stauskas and Curry go 5-7 was bad defense. That's not guys you leave open. I woudln't call it bad defense leaving the other guys open. obviously you don't want to leave anyone open, but if you doubled down on Lillard/McCollum and it leads to an open three for Aminu or Turner, you don't chase them off the 3, you let them shoot it. If the role players who aren't good 3 point shooters are going to take that many 3's and hit 50% of them, you are more than likely going to lose and there's not much you can do about it.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 9:19 am to TigerinATL
I don’t think there’s any question. Having to play Frazier is painful.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 9:20 am to corndeaux
quote:
Payton helps, but not sure he is a the difference between an extra win or two here or not.
This is really easy to say when you aren't watching a game and seeing Frazier not play a single lick of defense while providing nothing other than the ability to hit the wide open 3 (which Elfrid can not do) on offense.
There's nothing to say that those possessions don't end up with similar results, especially with how terrible our defense looks in general. But right now, at this particular moment, teams are utterly abusing Tim Frazier and it's not even fair. I didn't watch last night's game, but I am not even slightly surprised Frazier was the worst in BPM.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 9:32 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Frazier/Frank/Clark
This group should be playing a combined 30 minutes or so a game. Since Payton has gone done it's been 50+ for them.
Obviously AD is the most impactful player on the team, but I think we're seeing that it's trouble if Payton can't go and that group is asked to play significant minutes.
I know I'm not saying anything groundbreaking here.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 9:53 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
This is really easy to say when you aren't watching a game
clown
let me simplify this for you: the point isnt that Frazier is a good defender. he's not even close.
the point is that it "is really easy to say" that Payton is a defensive force when you've watched him play 4 games over 5 years
pointing out any player as the one reason the defense sucked w/o Davis is reductive and dumb. it's a grease fire without him because the talent isn't there at all spots and because the league has gone bonkers on offense to start the season
Posted on 11/2/18 at 9:56 am to TigerinATL
Having to play Frazier is worse than having to play Okafor/diallo
I think.
I think.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 10:03 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
I didn't watch last night's game, but I am not even slightly surprised Frazier was the worst in BPM.
We came out and tried to put Frazier on Layman so Jrue/Etwaun could cover Lillard/McCollum.
First play of the game, they post up 6'9" Layman on Frrazier and get a very easy bucket.
It happened the nigh before against GSW where Klay posted him up on 2 or 3 possessions in a row and scored.
His offense isn't good enough to warrant him playing when his defense is so terrible. And it's not his fault, he's simply cannot guard guys like that.
Posted on 11/2/18 at 10:05 am to corndeaux
quote:
let me simplify this for you: the point isnt that Frazier is a good defender. he's not even close.
the point is that it "is really easy to say" that Payton is a defensive force when you've watched him play 4 games over 5 years
pointing out any player as the one reason the defense sucked w/o Davis is reductive and dumb. it's a grease fire without him because the talent isn't there at all spots and because the league has gone bonkers on offense to start the season
I'll tell you right now my biggest focus when watching the Pels is concentrating on the defensive efforts of Frazier. My post history backs that up. It's REALLY bad. I've seen Frank and Ian look bad, but they don't come close to the terribleness of Frazier. He is literally doing NOTHING right. He switches onto bigs way too easily instead of fighting screens. 1 on 1, he is burnt toast every time he defends the drive. His guy is getting wide open looks as he ball watches or just gets lost.
Saying Elfrid would be an improvement isn't me saying that he's a defensive stalwart. It's me saying he can not possibly be worth less than worthless on that end of the floor.
That's not even getting into the offensive side of the ball. Frazier cannot push into early offense well. He can't run the half court offense. He HAS been very able to knock down the wide open 3s when teams don't even bother guarding him. That's something.
Niko's struggles could very much be impacted by not having a PG that can get into the paint and break it down or run the floor with pace and vision to find these guys when they run to their spots on the perimeter.
This team is out of its comfort zone without Davis and Payton, and Payton does provide a key component to what they're looking for out of their lead guards.
Frazier is also giving effort on the defensive glass, but he is so tiny even position doesn't help him snag these rebounds. These are rebounds bigger guards like Payton and Jrue would bring down.
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