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Started By
Message
re: Move Ingram.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 12:48 pm to lovepurplelivegold14
Posted on 5/2/21 at 12:48 pm to lovepurplelivegold14
quote:
Or or... stay with me here... let’s put better players around Zion and Ingram. We’re forcing young players to lead a basketball team. Let’s put better players around them so it doesn’t feel like if they don’t produce we don’t win. Bro look at Memphis... Ja Morant doesn’t have to dominate for them to win. A lot of nights he doesn’t lead them in points. Yesterday they won by 17 points. He only scored 8 and they only scored 92. They are allowing him to grow as a player. The Clippers are good as hell with PG and Kawhi, they can lead an offense, but they need rondo to help control an offense and take pressure off them. We have a lot of problems with our team... Ingram and Zion aren’t them.
I'm a fan of this post.
0
Posted on 5/2/21 at 12:56 pm to Patfic15
This fricking thread again. 
Posted on 5/2/21 at 1:15 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
We just have some of the dumbest fricking fans. Our team was constructed with no real point guard and we’re forcing two young forwards to be our lead ball handlers and the response on this board is to blame the only good players we have.
We finally have a top 20 player that not only has improved every season, but wants to be here, has spoken nothing but great things about the situation, did what few players his age would do and commit to the additional year when most, if not all, would be leaving that last year open to maneuver himself to a bigger market.
And the knuckle dragging fans? Melt and whine constantly. Want him on the next flight out, for, checks notes, being one of the most doubled players in the league and still putting up damn efficient numbers on a team that’s role players are not very complimentary to him.
Replace him? With fricking who?
Seriously, give me the names of guys that make this team better, have the same upside, that are actually available?
This post was edited on 5/2/21 at 1:30 pm
Posted on 5/2/21 at 1:55 pm to Bronc
I’ve been a periodic Ingram hater but I’ve changed my mind.
Ingram’s issues I think our mostly related to our PG problem. Ingram gets into trouble when he’s trying to run the offense. As a complimentary ball handler I think he’ll be fine.
He’s a pretty good passer but makes some really lazy and stupid turnovers because he’s forced to handle too much.
We need a PG who can penetrate and kick. A few knock down shooters and this is a solid playoff team.
Ingram’s issues I think our mostly related to our PG problem. Ingram gets into trouble when he’s trying to run the offense. As a complimentary ball handler I think he’ll be fine.
He’s a pretty good passer but makes some really lazy and stupid turnovers because he’s forced to handle too much.
We need a PG who can penetrate and kick. A few knock down shooters and this is a solid playoff team.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 1:59 pm to Bronc
For the sake of argument, if you completely disregard contracts, then I would obviously take Curry or Lillard in a trade for Ingram. It's at least conceivable that one or both of them could be available this offseason. That's it. I don't think anyone else is going to be available in a trade who could make the Pels better than Ingram can.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 2:29 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Curry or Lillard in a trade for Ingram
Not happening.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 2:51 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
For the sake of argument, if you completely disregard contracts, then I would obviously take Curry or Lillard in a trade for Ingram.
Sure, conditionally.
quote:
It's at least conceivable that one or both of them could be available this offseason.
But I don’t think so.
Not just because I don’t think either team would trade them(which I don’t, unless they demanded it, to which they aren’t demanding to come here), and in Curry’s case he’s a FA after next season, and good luck convincing him to retire a Pel. And pretty sure the step of events in Portland will be trading basically everything else before Lillard. Guy is the definition of a franchise player.
I think your realistic trade targets are Beal…and that might be it if we’re honest. The league is sort of in an interesting spot right now where most of the guys that people thought might be demanding trades or be gettable guys shortly: Booker, KAT, Simmons, Lavine, Porter Jr, have all pushed back that prospect at least another season. If not entirely for the time being due to the change in circumstances around them.
This post was edited on 5/2/21 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 5/2/21 at 3:03 pm to Bronc
I mean, I don't in any way think that a trade for either is likely.
But it's now clear that Lillard is unhappy with Portland management, and he's never going to win a ring there, so the chance of him demanding a trade isn't nothing.
And the Warriors have the league's highest total salaries by a mile. And in addition to all that salary, they are paying something like $140 million in tax, which is just nuts for a team that may not actually make the playoffs. At some point, they have to blow up the Splash Bros.
That's why I think there's a chance that they could be available. Also, I think that Lillard or Curry would be especially devastating to pair with Zion, because the only way to stop them is to trap them at the logo, but there's no way to do that and also build a wall to stop Zion. The shooting ability of Lillard and Curry and the spacing that results would, in my opinion, make them even more valuable on the Pels than Beal would be.
But it's now clear that Lillard is unhappy with Portland management, and he's never going to win a ring there, so the chance of him demanding a trade isn't nothing.
And the Warriors have the league's highest total salaries by a mile. And in addition to all that salary, they are paying something like $140 million in tax, which is just nuts for a team that may not actually make the playoffs. At some point, they have to blow up the Splash Bros.
That's why I think there's a chance that they could be available. Also, I think that Lillard or Curry would be especially devastating to pair with Zion, because the only way to stop them is to trap them at the logo, but there's no way to do that and also build a wall to stop Zion. The shooting ability of Lillard and Curry and the spacing that results would, in my opinion, make them even more valuable on the Pels than Beal would be.
This post was edited on 5/2/21 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 5/2/21 at 3:10 pm to GOP_Tiger
Yeah, I don’t think it’s happening.
The Warriors can afford the payroll and Portland will do any and everything before trading Lillard. Lillard is under contract through the 25 season. The Warriors only go that direction if forced, if Curry leaves after next season. But no way he demands a trade this offseason, which is basically the only narrowest of window we would have to even get in that mix.
In terms of Lillard If players are getting catered to in trade demands that early into a contract we might as well start negotiating with Seattle to move the team. I could see Mccollum on the market, and basically everyone not named Lillard, but Lillard will be the last bullet in the chamber before it gets fired imo.
The Warriors can afford the payroll and Portland will do any and everything before trading Lillard. Lillard is under contract through the 25 season. The Warriors only go that direction if forced, if Curry leaves after next season. But no way he demands a trade this offseason, which is basically the only narrowest of window we would have to even get in that mix.
In terms of Lillard If players are getting catered to in trade demands that early into a contract we might as well start negotiating with Seattle to move the team. I could see Mccollum on the market, and basically everyone not named Lillard, but Lillard will be the last bullet in the chamber before it gets fired imo.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 3:32 pm to Bronc
There was rumblings a couple weeks ago, don't remember if I seen on Twitter or heard on SXM, but supposedly Chicago is not willing to commit to Lavine long term, and he may be available this offseason.
My offseason targets would be (in no particular order) Draymond, Pat Bev, Lavine, Beal, Rozier, and Reddish. I would love Lowry, but no way he comes here.
I would move Ingram, but it would take a hell of a package for a team to get him from me.
My offseason targets would be (in no particular order) Draymond, Pat Bev, Lavine, Beal, Rozier, and Reddish. I would love Lowry, but no way he comes here.
I would move Ingram, but it would take a hell of a package for a team to get him from me.
This post was edited on 5/2/21 at 3:36 pm
Posted on 5/2/21 at 3:46 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
I would move Ingram, but it would take a hell of a package for a team to get him from me.
If I'm moving Ingram, I better get a young PG who can run an offense. Zach Lavine is not that answer either.
I compare Lavine to Booker. He's a player who can give you 30 points, but in clutch minutes I worry about his ability to either score or get the guys in the best position to do it.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 3:48 pm to htran90
I wouldn't move him for Lavine. Ball, sure, but not Ingram.
It would take more than Lavine, I'll use NYK as an example, if they would call talks would start with RJ.
It would take more than Lavine, I'll use NYK as an example, if they would call talks would start with RJ.
This post was edited on 5/2/21 at 3:49 pm
Posted on 5/2/21 at 4:08 pm to Bronc
quote:
Seriously, give me the names of guys that make this team better, have the same upside, that are actually available?
I've been trying to get an answer to this all year long.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 4:12 pm to Bronc
Honest Question. When you say top 20 player, do you mean overall or just offensive player? I think there is an argument to be made Ingram is a top 20 offensive player for 3 quarters of a game. He is below average in winning time though. As for defense, Ingram is probably closer to a bottom 20% player than a top 20 player.
Combine the offensive, defensive, and clutch time stats up and you have a player that is somewhat objectively maybe top 75 if we are being very generous. For example? What do rank Derozan, Derrick White, MPJ, Derrick Rose, Robert Covington, and other players that have played decidedly better than Ingram down the stretch in winnable games? Are they also top 20? If they are outperforming Ingram offensively and defensively in the most key junctures of the game, maybe they should be. Where are you slotting Julius Randle? Julius is a player that is probably in that 15-20 range overall and he’s the best player on a team that is easily going to make the playoffs. Ingram isn’t anywhere close to being able to lead a team in the playoffs independently. Let’s call it how it is. Ingram might be a top 20 scorer, if you ignore clutch time. He is not anywhere near a top 20 overall player in this league and he is certainly not above criticism.
“Wants to be here”. Saying things in interviews is one thing. On court demeanor and effort is another. Ingram has had the personality and zest of a dead fish this season no matter what the situation is. The only time he will ever crack a smile or show emotion is when he’s having a good offensive game (regardless of the score).
In terms of players I would target for Ingram. I’d target the usual suspects we always talk about and if he is as good as people say he is, we should be able to almost trade him straight up for a star that fits better and has more of a winners mentality, instead of moving Naw, Kira and every pick we have for that player.
The ultimate goal is to win a championship right? I sincerely do not see that type of upside with either Ingram or Lonzo, so why not use them to trade or create cap space for players that might improve that chance? And I think people are going to be surprised by the type of impact having a magnetic, likeable generational superstar like Zion will have to our ability to attract free agents down the road.
Combine the offensive, defensive, and clutch time stats up and you have a player that is somewhat objectively maybe top 75 if we are being very generous. For example? What do rank Derozan, Derrick White, MPJ, Derrick Rose, Robert Covington, and other players that have played decidedly better than Ingram down the stretch in winnable games? Are they also top 20? If they are outperforming Ingram offensively and defensively in the most key junctures of the game, maybe they should be. Where are you slotting Julius Randle? Julius is a player that is probably in that 15-20 range overall and he’s the best player on a team that is easily going to make the playoffs. Ingram isn’t anywhere close to being able to lead a team in the playoffs independently. Let’s call it how it is. Ingram might be a top 20 scorer, if you ignore clutch time. He is not anywhere near a top 20 overall player in this league and he is certainly not above criticism.
“Wants to be here”. Saying things in interviews is one thing. On court demeanor and effort is another. Ingram has had the personality and zest of a dead fish this season no matter what the situation is. The only time he will ever crack a smile or show emotion is when he’s having a good offensive game (regardless of the score).
In terms of players I would target for Ingram. I’d target the usual suspects we always talk about and if he is as good as people say he is, we should be able to almost trade him straight up for a star that fits better and has more of a winners mentality, instead of moving Naw, Kira and every pick we have for that player.
The ultimate goal is to win a championship right? I sincerely do not see that type of upside with either Ingram or Lonzo, so why not use them to trade or create cap space for players that might improve that chance? And I think people are going to be surprised by the type of impact having a magnetic, likeable generational superstar like Zion will have to our ability to attract free agents down the road.
This post was edited on 5/2/21 at 4:35 pm
Posted on 5/2/21 at 5:46 pm to 3PieceSpicy
I still feel you need to give Ingram another year. This season Jrue was out, Ingram was maxed, and he was basically told this was his team, or at least he had to take on the leadership role. Let's see what happens when we go into an offseason knowing this is Zion's team and everyone has to figure out how to fit around him.
If Ingram doesn't take a step forward next year, preferably on defense, then you can start looking at trades. I'm still not even sure what an ideal young star to pair with Zion looks like. De'Aron Fox?
Another year also lets you have more time to look at Kira. Can he be that young star lead guard you want next to Zion, or is he the guy you package with Ingram to get the young star lead guard?
If Ingram doesn't take a step forward next year, preferably on defense, then you can start looking at trades. I'm still not even sure what an ideal young star to pair with Zion looks like. De'Aron Fox?
Another year also lets you have more time to look at Kira. Can he be that young star lead guard you want next to Zion, or is he the guy you package with Ingram to get the young star lead guard?
Posted on 5/2/21 at 9:01 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
We need to replace some low-IQ posters in this board.
In fairness, a lot of those types of posts are coming from posters with like 200 and 700 lifetime posts. Seems like it might be one poster who is using a couple of alters to get an echo chamber going.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 9:09 pm to Methuselah
quote:
Seems like it might be one poster who is using a couple of alters to get an echo chamber going.
I don't think it's alters. I think Zion has raised the level of interest in the team and casual fans are having an even harder time than the regulars processing how 2 All Star caliber talents leads to this train wreck.
Posted on 5/2/21 at 10:01 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
Beal, Rozier
I think rozier would be an interesting fit here. I love him as a player.
What do you think he gets on a new contract?
Posted on 5/2/21 at 10:48 pm to Methuselah
Lol, I am a big fan of the team and everything, but I already post way too much as is. I really doubt any of these people are alters. That seems like a serious waste of time. Just because people have differing opinions, doesn’t mean that they are alters or low iq fans. Would you rather this place be one giant echo chamber in the other direction? Or would you like to discuss Pels basketball in a place where you can hear multiple perspectives?
You know what is boring as hell? 100 people that all say the same things and agree with each other all the time. The board needs “high iq” posters, “low iq” posters, dissenters, defenders, hype men, gifted memers and gifers, etc. Not everyone can be TigerNATL, Bronc, etc and just have mad perspective all the time even when things are not going as smoothly as anticipated. People will post things out of frustration. When things go wrong, people will start threads bashing our social justice twitter warrior retread coach or our max player that too often takes the ball out of future MJ’s hands. It’s just gonna happen. Not everyone is a robot. Not everyone is patient. Not everyone sees the game the exact same way.
Personally, I own my shite posts. Sometimes I post things out of frustration. Sometimes I simply post things from a devil’s advocate position just to see what everyone else’s position is. Sometimes I post things because I really believe them. All of posts derive from the same general place though. I’m a huge fan of this franchise and I always will be for better or for worse.
The first game I ever went to was game 3 in the playoffs against Allen Iverson and the Sixers. The promo for that game were thunder-sticks. At one point during the game, the gameday promo crew launched a t shirt at my dad and he tried to snag it with his hand, but instead of catching it, it ricocheted and popped one of his thunder-sticks. I’ve been hooked on New Orleans basketball ever since.
Long story short, the truth is probably somewhere in between on Ingram. He is not a top 20 player, but if he makes improvements, he probably can be. Ingram is also probably better than top 75, but when he is at his worst, he definitely is outside of the top 75. The problem with Lonzo and Ingram is the wide variance in their performances. For Lonzo, his variance is more extreme from game to game. Ingram’s variance seems to show up in big moments because his final counting numbers are relatively consistent from game to game.
Personally, I don’t see a championship route with Ingram on the team. Part of the issue is, is his fit with Zion. Both are below average defenders. I think our 2nd star either needs to be another top 5 offensive player, Like Zion is (Lillard, Harden, Durant- and yes I am aware none of these players are attainable) or they need to be more of a complementary offensive player and an elite defender (someone like a Kawhi or a better jump shooting Jimmy Butler).
Going all in on an Ingram, Beal/Lavine/Towns, Zion all offensive team would probably be extremely fun, but we probably would not win a ring like that. 3 does seem to be the magic number with stars. You can double one, you can maybe double 2, but you can’t double 3. We’d be a top 3 offense if we went that route. I’d still worry about the defense being good enough and I’d also worry about injuries because we’d likely have to trade some of our young, ascending, talented depth to make that type of big 3 happen.
Fox is a helluva player and seems to be pretty clutch. My concern with him is defense (I’m not sure how he stacks up) and free throw shooting. But I do think, Fox is arguably an upgrade over Ingram and definitely an upgrade over Lonzo.
I’m okay with giving Ingram until the trade deadline next year, but we also would be prudent to trade him before the book is out on him league wide and it negatively impacts his value.
You know what is boring as hell? 100 people that all say the same things and agree with each other all the time. The board needs “high iq” posters, “low iq” posters, dissenters, defenders, hype men, gifted memers and gifers, etc. Not everyone can be TigerNATL, Bronc, etc and just have mad perspective all the time even when things are not going as smoothly as anticipated. People will post things out of frustration. When things go wrong, people will start threads bashing our social justice twitter warrior retread coach or our max player that too often takes the ball out of future MJ’s hands. It’s just gonna happen. Not everyone is a robot. Not everyone is patient. Not everyone sees the game the exact same way.
Personally, I own my shite posts. Sometimes I post things out of frustration. Sometimes I simply post things from a devil’s advocate position just to see what everyone else’s position is. Sometimes I post things because I really believe them. All of posts derive from the same general place though. I’m a huge fan of this franchise and I always will be for better or for worse.
The first game I ever went to was game 3 in the playoffs against Allen Iverson and the Sixers. The promo for that game were thunder-sticks. At one point during the game, the gameday promo crew launched a t shirt at my dad and he tried to snag it with his hand, but instead of catching it, it ricocheted and popped one of his thunder-sticks. I’ve been hooked on New Orleans basketball ever since.
Long story short, the truth is probably somewhere in between on Ingram. He is not a top 20 player, but if he makes improvements, he probably can be. Ingram is also probably better than top 75, but when he is at his worst, he definitely is outside of the top 75. The problem with Lonzo and Ingram is the wide variance in their performances. For Lonzo, his variance is more extreme from game to game. Ingram’s variance seems to show up in big moments because his final counting numbers are relatively consistent from game to game.
Personally, I don’t see a championship route with Ingram on the team. Part of the issue is, is his fit with Zion. Both are below average defenders. I think our 2nd star either needs to be another top 5 offensive player, Like Zion is (Lillard, Harden, Durant- and yes I am aware none of these players are attainable) or they need to be more of a complementary offensive player and an elite defender (someone like a Kawhi or a better jump shooting Jimmy Butler).
Going all in on an Ingram, Beal/Lavine/Towns, Zion all offensive team would probably be extremely fun, but we probably would not win a ring like that. 3 does seem to be the magic number with stars. You can double one, you can maybe double 2, but you can’t double 3. We’d be a top 3 offense if we went that route. I’d still worry about the defense being good enough and I’d also worry about injuries because we’d likely have to trade some of our young, ascending, talented depth to make that type of big 3 happen.
Fox is a helluva player and seems to be pretty clutch. My concern with him is defense (I’m not sure how he stacks up) and free throw shooting. But I do think, Fox is arguably an upgrade over Ingram and definitely an upgrade over Lonzo.
I’m okay with giving Ingram until the trade deadline next year, but we also would be prudent to trade him before the book is out on him league wide and it negatively impacts his value.
This post was edited on 5/2/21 at 11:02 pm
Posted on 5/3/21 at 8:12 am to Chalkywhite84
He will get 16-20 on a new deal. I would rather give it to him than to Lonzo.
He has been hitting some clutch shots this year also.
He has been hitting some clutch shots this year also.
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