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shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
75236 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

That’s absurd then
You never heard of the stats but now it's absurd because it doesn't fit your narrative?

That's weak, man.

You've still yet to provide one shred of evidence to backup your claim on DWest.

quote:

being a higher usage guard that is going to increase basic counting stats which is weighted more heavily in hollinger’s napkin analytics formula like assists.
Now factor in Holidays defense, then get back to me...

quote:

You cant look at D Wests game to game output and claim he wasn’t a model of consistency
Same goes for Jrue

quote:

You all trying to gaslight what everyone has seen with Jrue is really getting old.

No, you're making claims you have nothing to backup and are getting pissy when actual data ran contrary to your assertion. I can only assume you're getting pissy because you know you have nothing to show your claim is legit, or else you would have done so already.


Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246460 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

mean watch games or don’t, but Zion is not the number two on this team right now.


Who is?

I mean buddy is getting 20 per game only playing 25min on average. The way he affects the game easily makes him a number 2.

quote:

You made the argument that Jrue is becoming the perfect fit for this roster, I’d disagree now and int he future, you seem to not. So make the case


He’s a fine short term fix & I just don’t see a reason to force a trade right now. He should have been traded last offseason. They missed that window so it is what it is.


quote:

you came back with that nonsense trying to claim Beal has regressed without incorporating any context.


I only posted his 3pt%. So that’s just the conclusion you drew.

Beal was a coup when he was killing it from 3. Since then, his price tag has gone up & the Pelicans have added guys that can shoot. He just doesn’t fit like everyone thought he once did. Expecting a guy getting 30 a game to come & defer fo a 22 & 19 year old just sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. There will be better fits
This post was edited on 2/9 at 6:38 pm


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

You never heard of the stats but now it's absurd because it doesn't fit your narrative?

That's weak, man.

You've still yet to provide one shred of evidence to backup your claim on DWest.


I’ve heard of the stat, I don’t think it is a very good one. And my guess is you reached for it because you immediately knew that comparing the box stats of the two put your argument in a precarious situation. As Dwest just didn’t have performances like Jrue’s prior three games. And if they did they were few and far between and he found other ways to contribute. It wasn’t in his DNA. So you are reaching for a rather superficial analytical model that overvalues aspects of guard play to defend Jrue’s inconsistency that everyone can see plainly.

Put mildly, its gaslighting.

quote:

Same goes for Jrue


List out for me his box scores since coming back from injury, I’ll wait.
This post was edited on 2/9 at 6:40 pm


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:



I only posted his 3pt%. So that’s just the conclusion you drew.

Beal was a coup when he was killing it from 3. Since then, his price tag has gone up & the Pelicans have added guys that can shoot. He just doesn’t fit like everyone thought he once did. Expecting a guy getting 30 a game to come & defer fo a 22 & 19 year old just sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. There will be better fits


He would be your number one or one b for the next few seasons while Zion matures.

Like AD, some of you are vastly over expecting in terms of Zion’s growth as a player. We are several seasons away before he can be a one or two option and make us a contender In that role.

As for Jrue, so your argument is to what? Let him walk or pay him 35 million? You are offering an absurd proposition, either trade him last year or not at all? That makes no fricking sense if you thought he should have been moved.
This post was edited on 2/9 at 6:42 pm


shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
75236 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

And my guess is you reached for it because
I literally only did so because you said to go look it up

quote:

As Dwest just didn’t have performances like Jrue’s prior three games. And if they did they were few and far between and he found other ways to contribute
He did factually, they weren't few and far between factually, and you're off your rocker if you think Jrue doesn't find other ways to contribute, that's legit his main strength.

Still waiting for any objective shred of data you can backup for your claim. You haven't done so, I have.

quote:

So you are reaching for a rather superficial analytical model that overvalues aspects of guard play to defend Jrue’s inconsistency that everyone can see plainly.

Put mildly, its gaslighting
Put mildly, you're incorrect and haven't backed up your claim once... Still waiting...
quote:

List out for me his box scores since coming back from injury, I’ll wait.

How about you start giving objective data to backup your claim before requesting data from me, or more data from me since I've already provided enough.


TigerinATL
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Feb 2005
52037 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
I think Jrue fits better than Beal for a variety of reasons, but a pretty compelling argument for Beal over Jrue is you have a similar level player that's a few years younger. Rolling assets forward is absolutely something the Pels need to do. I just wonder if Beal's contract negates the age difference if you can re-sign Jrue for a similar number to what he makes now.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
I listed out my argument on page one, you pointed to a analytical model you cant even defend to try and push back.

Like I said, list me his box score since coming back from injury, you have your argument from me, which I already went into detail on on page one. You continue to pretend he didn’t just average 32% and 10% fronm three while turning it over almost as much as he got assists the last three games before last night, similar to the the three games after his initial return game.

He has been wildly inconsistent from game to game and even quarter to quarter on the offensive side of the ball. He is a steady defensive player but age and our core’s timeline presents a number of long-term problems that make the most viable path forward cashing him in this summer for either youth more aligned with a slower growth centered around Zion and Ingram, or for a more fitting superstar aligned with out timeline that can come in and be a 1 or 2 while Zion develops and Ingram continues to hopefully moves into the top 20 in the league.
This post was edited on 2/9 at 6:50 pm


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:


I think Jrue fits better than Beal for a variety of reasons, but a pretty compelling argument for Beal over Jrue is you have a similar level player that's a few years younger. Rolling assets forward is absolutely something the Pels need to do. I just wonder if Beal's contract negates the age difference if you can re-sign Jrue for a similar number to what he makes now.




I don’t see a scenario where you get Jrue for 26 million dollars unless he takes a step back next season and then you have to really wonder what the heck you would be doing if his downward slide was already starting.



Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246460 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Like AD, some of you are vastly over expecting in terms of Zion’s growth as a player


Or you are underrating him like you did Brandon Ingram? Lol what makes you so cocky with the shite takes you have on paper?

My expectations are just fine from what I’ve seen. His scoring efficiency speaks for itself at every level he’s played.


quote:

As for Jrue, so your argument is to what? Let him walk or pay him 35 million? You are offering an absurd proposition, either trade him last year or not at all? That makes no fricking sense if you thought he should have been moved.


Well, his trade stock will never be as high as it was this offseason. So yes, at this point he may be worth more to the Pels than any other team.

He’s not untouchable. That’d be dumb. I don’t exactly think you must force a deal for him, though. This team will be successful with him so when it comes time to make a decision on him, that’s a discussion for another day


TigerinATL
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Feb 2005
52037 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

I don’t see a scenario where you get Jrue for 26 million dollars unless he takes a step back next season and then you have to really wonder what the heck you would be doing if his downward slide was already starting.



I meant more like $28-$30, which is still a significant raise, and probably well above what any team with 2 other All Stars (Ingram and Zion) on the roster could offer.

Beal's contract jumps to $34 and $37 in the last 2 years.


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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Or you are underrating him like you did Brandon Ingram? Lol what makes you so cocky with the shite takes you have on paper?


When did I underrate BI?

I distinctly remember being one of the few people stating Ingram had the highest potential to make an all star team first out of our AD return during the summer.

BI has always been a more efficient jumper away from knocking on the top 20. And now is better defense away from knocking on the top ten. Which I suspect will round out in the coming years.


And I didn’t say force a trade to get rid of him, why some have to resort to straw men to argue for Jrue continues to baffle me, just have a grown up conversation based around what I am actually saying, not what you want to project onto me. In the unlikely event Jrue has no real market in the summer to bring back a Beal trope return in a multi team trade, it may make sense to roll with him, see about a sign and trade or hope against hope he doesn’t demand 30 million plus like I suspect. My point has been if the opportunity to get a solid return more aligned with our timeline, you do it this summer.


Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246460 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
This post was edited on 2/9 at 7:02 pm


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

I meant more like $28-$30, which is still a significant raise, and probably well above what any team with 2 other All Stars (Ingram and Zion) on the roster could offer.


I still think it is unrealistic but assuming you can get Jrue on that sort of deal and for 2-3 years instead of 4 or 5, or an a declining salary, yeah, that would change my calculus as well.

I just think it is difficult to imagine Jrue, in his situation, settling for anything less than the most he can get knowing this is his last big payday. And if that discount is coming to a team, I imagine it would be a ready made contender. Despite the good words he spreads in the middle of his current contract.


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01
shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
75236 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

I listed out my argument on page one,
Your argument is that Jrue is wildly inconsistent, and you basically wished he could be a model of consistency like David West was.

There is nothing you've stated to suggest DWest was any bit more consistent than Jrue.

You then claimed Gamescore favors guards more but didn't give reasons.


You then said the wildest thing you've said in this thread, that when he wasn't, say, having a good shooting night that DWest could do more to help his team than Jrue Holiday. I can't even take that seriously, that's just a bad take. The best thing Dwest could do on a down night is rebound? Jrue can still run an offense/facilitate, rackup 10+ assists, and play lockdown defense. He can very easily do more than DWest ever could assuming a down night shooting.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
All true at that point in time, no?

Or were you out there publicly projecting him to have a historical leap in terms of shooting efficiency?

I also mentioned after the deal looked a lot better when all the chips fell that Ingram had the highest ceiling and mentioned him alone as our most cleat all star candidate if he improved certain things....which he did.


Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246460 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

All true at that point in time, no?


So you’re telling me I should take stock into how you project Zion?

Sorry, but I’m OUT on that one


quote:

Or were you out there publicly projecting him to have a historical leap in terms of shooting efficiency?


Actually....yap, I was


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

You then said the wildest thing you've said in this thread, that when he wasn't, say, having a good shooting night that DWest could do more to help his team than Jrue Holiday. I can't even take that seriously, that's just a bad take. The best thing Dwest could do on a down night is rebound? Jrue can still run an offense/facilitate, rackup 10+ assists, and play lockdown defense. He can very easily do more than DWest ever could assuming a down night shooting.


Find me two to three games in a row where DWest laid duds like this that season?



Again, I’ll wait

This post was edited on 2/9 at 7:16 pm


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Actually....yap, I was


Link it then


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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1769 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
If you want to go into my point about quarter to quarter inconsistency with Jrue, just look at him in the fourth. Shooting a putrid 38% and 28% from three, 69% at the line and a TS% of just 46%.

Compare that to Hart, Zion, Ingram, Zo, Favors and around 100 players that play 8 minutes in the fourth and have played so in over 20 games this season. All performaing better over the season in this quarter. In fact he is slotted above Josh Richardson near the bottom of the list given that criteria. With company like RJ Barrett, Taurean Prince, and Garrett Temple. All while dominating the second highest usage on the team for the quarter. Putting him in very little company in terms of being so high usage in the fourth with such poor output.

Again, Jrue is a model of great defensive consistency these days, but offensively it is really problematic with his high variance from game to game, quarter to quarter, and general poor fourth quarter play.
This post was edited on 2/9 at 7:36 pm


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shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
75236 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Find me two to three games in a row where DWest laid duds like this that season?

We already did this, I gave you the data, and you rejected the facts.


And if I find 2-3 games where DWest stunk it up and shot like shit, you're just going to make an excuse, correct?


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