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TigerinATL
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Feb 2005
52015 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Where did I say that is what I am seeking? Frankly, this post seems to largely argue against positions I didn’t state or infer to be taking.


I think you have a well thought out position on Jrue, most of the people that want to trade Jrue don't. So some of what I said is aimed at the people who think "Jrue isn't part of the future so trading him sooner is better than later."

Our biggest point of disagreement is I feel the usage you can get out of him the next 1-2 years can fuel enough improvement in Zion/Ingram that it's worth riding Jrue until he's a neutral asset.
This post was edited on 2/9 at 1:00 pm


cgrand
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
HAMMOND
Member since Oct 2009
20084 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Our biggest point of disagreement is I feel the usage you can get out of him the next 1-2 years can fuel enough improvement in Zion/Ingram that it's worth riding Jrue until he's a neutral asset.

can’t agree enough.
they can ride holiday thru his ups and downs as long as he’s overall positive, and he is by all traditional and advanced measures. He occupies a salary spot that would have to be taken by someone else anyway who might not be as committed or comfortable


Billy Mays
Ole Miss Fan
Mandeville
Member since Jan 2009
21018 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
His per game averages suggest he doesn’t have as many “bad games” as you are suggesting. Human nature to remember the bad moreso than the good.

It’s people that are expecting him to be great every night - which is ridiculous since he’s not an elite talent.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
Nothing so far I have seen suggests Jrue is some sort of sage mentor that can’t be replicated by another vet.

As again, my first solution is not to replace Jrue with some assets on a ledger in the form of draft picks, but to cash him in for a long term star like Beal. Who himself is a young veteran and given the turmoil in DC would likely relish having a group of guys to help lead that are actually capable of competing at the highest level.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

His per game averages suggest he doesn’t have as many “bad games” as you are suggesting. Human nature to remember the bad moreso than the good.

It’s people that are expecting him to be great every night - which is ridiculous since he’s not an elite talent.


Do me a favor, pick a year from D West’s prime and look at his game logs vs Jrue’s.

For a player to be on every night is unrealistic, but Jrue more than many 2nd and even 3rd options is notably high variance. Since coming back from injury he has as many bad games as good offensively. To go with struggling out the gate. Furthermore he tends to even be high variance in game. Coming out hot and then all but disappearing or dissapointing down the stretch.

Again, things you live with if he is a firm 3rd option where his usage is down and options one and two are top 20 players. But it doesn’t look to be the case for that to happen u til into his next contract and then you have all the issues I mentioned to worry about.


shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
74990 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Do me a favor, pick a year from D West’s prime and look at his game logs vs Jrue’s.

2007-2008 DWest, a prime year you asked for.

Using a sub 10 game score as the baseline:

- DWest 20 sub 10 gamescores in 76 games, or 26.3% of the time

- Jrue this season has 11 sub 10 gamescores in 44 games, or 25% of the time




quote:

but Jrue more than many 2nd and even 3rd options is notably high variance
Does he? What do you base this on considering your DWest example wasn't what you thought it was?



Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246287 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

for a long term star like Beal


Beal 3p% last 4 years

.404 17’
.375 18’
.351 19’
.326 20’


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
We’ve had this conversation before, context matters. And you are ignorantly ignoring it.

Beal is starting with Ish Smith, Bonga, Hachimura, and Mahinmi. That means every defense he faces, every night he plays, the entire defensive game plan is to throw the best defender at Beal. To double, triple, and focus your entire game plan on stopping him and what he can do that kills you. And in that context the guy still drops 40 at will. His efficiency has dropped as his teams have progressively gotten more terrible, that’s not a coincidence.

If you want to make the argument that Beal would still be shooting that percentage if you replaced his starting unit with Zion, Ingram, Lonzo, Favors, and Reddick, go right ahead but you will look ridiculous.


shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
74990 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Beal 3p% last 4 years

.404 17’
.375 18’
.351 19’
.326 20’
Trying to determine the relevance of this ask related to what you quoted?

Is 3pt% the only stat worth looking at to determine if a guy is a long term star?

His TS% is still solid.


Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246287 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
The idea of adding Beal was always because he was the floor stretcher the Pels needed

The thing is, as this team plays more together, it’s quite obvious the pels do not need a player like Beal. Especially one who’s 3pt shooting has trended downward, Pels fans refuse to adjust their calibrations though.


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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

2007-2008 DWest, a prime year you asked for.

Using a sub 10 game score as the baseline:

- DWest 20 sub 10 gamescores in 76 games, or 26.3% of the time

- Jrue this season has 11 sub 10 gamescores in 44 games, or 25% of the time


Where the frick are you getting your numbers?

David West had 2 games scoring below ten points that season, 2, not 20. And in both of those he notched 5 rebounds and 4 assists with one turnover and the other 13 rebounds, 3 assists and a block. The guy was a model of consistency.



Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246287 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

If you want to make the argument that Beal would still be shooting that percentage if you replaced his starting unit with Zion, Ingram, Lonzo, Favors, and Reddick, go right ahead but you will look ridiculous.


That’s the issue. You have Ingram who has established himself as the dude. Zion is option 2.

You don’t need a guy that wants 20 shots a game like Beal. Especially with his contract. Try thinking of things in real life & not a video game


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
The guy is still a 40% shooter on open shots, the problem is he gets far fewer of those these days.

It.s not rocket science Earl. Like how when Jrue was the focal point of the offense and opposing defenses he struggled mightily to start the season. Difference is Beal has had that all year and despite that is a top scorer and improved his assists and rebounds.



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cgrand
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
HAMMOND
Member since Oct 2009
20084 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
gamescore of 10, not points
a game score of 10 is replacement/average


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

That’s the issue. You have Ingram who has established himself as the dude. Zion is option 2.


Zion is not number two and wont be for at least another season.He is not now. At least if you have ambitions beyond the first round.

And once he is ready for that role Jrue will be turning 32.

And your argument is essentially we would be better off paying 35 million to that than a 28 year old prime Beal.....Sure.


shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
74990 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Where the frick are you getting your numbers?
Basketball Reference

quote:

David West had 2 games scoring below ten points that season, 2, not 20
Points do not equal game score.

My point still stands.

quote:

The guy was a model of consistency.
A little less so than Jrue this season, based on game score.


I'm still questioning what you're basing your assertion on? Mine is backed up by data, fwiw.
This post was edited on 2/9 at 6:23 pm


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Lester Earl
Kamaratard
Member since Nov 2003
246287 posts
 Online 

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Zion is not number two and wont be for at least another season.He is not now


Wuttttt....Lol ok


quote:

d once he is ready for that role Jrue will be turning 32.

And your argument is essentially we would be better off paying 35 million to that than a 28 year old prime Beal.....Sure.


How is that my argument? I haven’t said that

The roster building does not have to be Beal vs Jrue.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
That’s absurd then, being a higher usage guard that is going to increase basic counting stats which is weighted more heavily in hollinger’s napkin analytics formula like assists.

You cant look at D Wests game to game output and claim he wasn’t a model of consistency.

You all trying to gaslight what everyone has seen with Jrue is really getting old.


shel311
Nicholls St. Fan
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
74990 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

You don’t need a guy that wants 20 shots a game like Beal
Does he want this on a 25 win team more than 3-4 less shots on a better team?

quote:

Try thinking of things in real life & not a video game

Elite ish level players have taken lesser roles before for the sake of winning.


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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
1751 posts

re: Are We Still Bashing Jrue?
quote:

Wuttttt....Lol ok



I mean watch games or don’t, but Zion is not the number two on this team right now.

You made the argument that Jrue is becoming the perfect fit for this roster, I’d disagree now and int he future, you seem to not. So make the case.

I didn’t say Beal or Jrue, I offered an example of a deal that makes the team better long-term, you came back with that nonsense trying to claim Beal has regressed without incorporating any context. My guess, you haven’t watched a game of his that didn’t involve the Pelicans. That’s the only way your ignorance makes any sense.


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