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Message
Question on the Star Wars PT
Posted on 4/3/18 at 10:28 am
Posted on 4/3/18 at 10:28 am
It strikes me that Palpatine's plan to take over the galaxy hinged on a lot of things going a very specific way.
For example, he used the Naboo crisis to be elected Supreme Chancellor. What would've happened if the Queen refused to call for a vote of no confidence or if Palpatine lost the election?
Then, in Attack of the Clones, he manufactures a conflict between the Republic and the Separatists as an excuse to be granted emergency powers and legalize the creation of a military force. What does he do if he is never granted emergency powers? Does he serve out his term and go away or create some other, more serious conflict?
It would seem that he could've had someone else in the senate make the proposal but given that he relied so much on the absence of Padme and the manipulation of Jar Jar, it wouldn't appear so.
Then, in Revenge of the Sith, when they Jedi find out that Palpatine is a Sith lord, they immediately go to his office to try to kill him. First off, is it a crime to be a Sith lord? Do they have evidence to link him to any actual crimes such as treason against the Republic? What if the Jedi had simply stood back and not done anything about Palpatine? Why not go to the Senate first and ask Palpatine to give up his emergency powers now that the war is over?
For example, he used the Naboo crisis to be elected Supreme Chancellor. What would've happened if the Queen refused to call for a vote of no confidence or if Palpatine lost the election?
Then, in Attack of the Clones, he manufactures a conflict between the Republic and the Separatists as an excuse to be granted emergency powers and legalize the creation of a military force. What does he do if he is never granted emergency powers? Does he serve out his term and go away or create some other, more serious conflict?
It would seem that he could've had someone else in the senate make the proposal but given that he relied so much on the absence of Padme and the manipulation of Jar Jar, it wouldn't appear so.
Then, in Revenge of the Sith, when they Jedi find out that Palpatine is a Sith lord, they immediately go to his office to try to kill him. First off, is it a crime to be a Sith lord? Do they have evidence to link him to any actual crimes such as treason against the Republic? What if the Jedi had simply stood back and not done anything about Palpatine? Why not go to the Senate first and ask Palpatine to give up his emergency powers now that the war is over?
7
Posted on 4/3/18 at 10:31 am to BulldogXero
Posted on 4/3/18 at 10:34 am to BulldogXero
To answer the last, the Sith are an existential threat to the Republic.
To answer the rest. The Dark Side is the easy way. He knew what moves to make because he was always "on" building from Sith before him and not detectable to the Jedi because he was constantly reading and manipulating emotions through the force and good ole fashioned charisma.
To answer the rest. The Dark Side is the easy way. He knew what moves to make because he was always "on" building from Sith before him and not detectable to the Jedi because he was constantly reading and manipulating emotions through the force and good ole fashioned charisma.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 10:40 am to BulldogXero
It shows how good Sith are at deception and manipulation. It's a carefully crafted master plan with every step happening because of palpatine wanting it that way.
They go to arrest him, not kill him. He calls it treason and attacks. He was going to be arrested because he refused to give up his power once the conflict was its end, like he stated he would. They didn't go to the Senate because he had control of it and the courts. It's mentioned at some point that he has the beaurocrats under his thumb. If he escaped, he would have the jedi framed as traitors, which happened.
quote:
Then, in Revenge of the Sith, when they Jedi find out that Palpatine is a Sith lord, they immediately go to his office to try to kill him. First off, is it a crime to be a Sith lord? Do they have evidence to link him to any actual crimes such as treason against the Republic? What if the Jedi had simply stood back and not done anything about Palpatine? Why not go to the Senate first and ask Palpatine to give up his emergency powers now that the war is over?
They go to arrest him, not kill him. He calls it treason and attacks. He was going to be arrested because he refused to give up his power once the conflict was its end, like he stated he would. They didn't go to the Senate because he had control of it and the courts. It's mentioned at some point that he has the beaurocrats under his thumb. If he escaped, he would have the jedi framed as traitors, which happened.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:04 am to BulldogXero
quote:
hat would've happened if the Queen refused to call for a vote of no confidence
He go to a back up plan
quote:
Palpatine lost the election?
Pretty sure at this point that was never going to be in doubt. Maybe his backup plan could be an assassination of the current one.
quote:
Then, in Attack of the Clones, he manufactures a conflict between the Republic and the Separatists as an excuse to be granted emergency powers and legalize the creation of a military force. What does he do if he is never granted emergency powers? Does he serve out his term and go away or create some other, more serious conflict?
He is playing both sides. If they refuse, he just keeps decimating the Republic with the separatists until there is no reason left to not vote for emergency powers. Without the Clone Army, the Republic is destroyed and he can just take over from the other side.
quote:
Then, in Revenge of the Sith, when they Jedi find out that Palpatine is a Sith lord, they immediately go to his office to try to kill him. First off, is it a crime to be a Sith lord? Do they have evidence to link him to any actual crimes such as treason against the Republic? What if the Jedi had simply stood back and not done anything about Palpatine? Why not go to the Senate first and ask Palpatine to give up his emergency powers now that the war is over?
They didn't go to the Senate because he had control of all the courts. They also went to arrest him, not kill him.
This post was edited on 4/3/18 at 11:06 am
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:08 am to JetsetNuggs
quote:
They go to arrest him, not kill him. He calls it treason and attacks. He was going to be arrested because he refused to give up his power once the conflict was its end, like he stated he would. They didn't go to the Senate because he had control of it and the courts. It's mentioned at some point that he has the bureaucrats under his thumb. If he escaped, he would have the jedi framed as traitors, which happened.
He had the Jedi framed as traitors because they attempted to assassinate him.
The fact that Mace wanted to kill Palpatine is also a pretty big reason why Anakin chose to turn to the dark side. If the Jedi chose not to act so quickly or attempted to go through the Senate first, I think Anakin would've had a much harder time reasoning in his mind that the Jedi were evil.
I get that they didn't attempt to kill him until they saw he was pretty good with the light saber, but shouldn't they have been a little more pragmatic? Palpatine was Chancellor over 10 years by the time of Episode 3, and he never framed the Jedi.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:16 am to BulldogXero
quote:
He had the Jedi framed as traitors because they attempted to assassinate him.
Right, but when they go there, they are specifically trying to arrest him. Palpatine starts the fight.
quote:
I get that they didn't attempt to kill him until they saw he was pretty good with the light saber, but shouldn't they have been a little more pragmatic? Palpatine was Chancellor over 10 years by the time of Episode 3, and he never framed the Jedi.
He revealed himself to Anakin specifically for this purpose. He knew how the Jedi would react. That entire scene was his set up to frame the Jedi.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:16 am to BulldogXero
quote:
For example, he used the Naboo crisis to be elected Supreme Chancellor. What would've happened if the Queen refused to call for a vote of no confidence or if Palpatine lost the election?
Palpatine made sure that was her only logical recourse. The fate of her planet hung in the balance. A good number of the Senate was in his pocket and he was purposely stalling any action being taken in the governing body. Forcing Naboo to declare a vote of no confidence would foster support of their allies and the existing support from members in his pocket. He needed Naboo to gain majority support leaving him, a sympathetic senator, as the popular replacement.
quote:
Then, in Attack of the Clones, he manufactures a conflict between the Republic and the Separatists as an excuse to be granted emergency powers and legalize the creation of a military force. What does he do if he is never granted emergency powers? Does he serve out his term and go away or create some other, more serious conflict?
I would imagine he had already consolidated a great deal of power in the Senate at this stage and simply expanded what he had done to Naboo to other sectors forcing their hand as well. He left them little choice.
quote:
Then, in Revenge of the Sith, when they Jedi find out that Palpatine is a Sith lord, they immediately go to his office to try to kill him. First off, is it a crime to be a Sith lord? Do they have evidence to link him to any actual crimes such as treason against the Republic? What if the Jedi had simply stood back and not done anything about Palpatine? Why not go to the Senate first and ask Palpatine to give up his emergency powers now that the war is over?
Not sure if it is illegal to be a Sith lord and you see Palpatine play up this conflict to help turn Anikin. He tells him of the jedi counsels plan to commit treason against the Senate and democracy. He has already been planting the seeds of distrust...the jedi sending him to spy goes against jedi teachings....the council interfering in government by trying to arrest the chancellor is another. However, it is the act of trying to kill the chancellor without due process, obviously against the jedi code, that turns Anikin against the jedi for good. Palpatine was effective in showing their hypocrisy.
What doesn't make sense to me is the fact that Anikin is turned because of this moral hypocrisy and immediately sets off to kill a bunch of children.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:20 am to JetsetNuggs
quote:
It shows how good Sith are at deception and manipulation.
This, and Palpatine was extraordinary with this in particular. If you read some of the books, namely the X-Wing series of books, they talked about how he was able to construct the Lusankya and bury it under the surface of Coruscant with tunnels connecting it to the Imperial Palace and then wipe its existance, construction, and burial from the memories of EVERYONE ON CORUSCANT save for the crew working on it. His force powers in this area were beyond comprehension.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:21 am to McChowder
quote:
What doesn't make sense to me is the fact that Anikin is turned because of this moral hypocrisy and immediately sets off to kill a bunch of children.
Yea, that scene was definitely rushed. I get the going and taking out the Jedi. He was on a quest for more power to be able to save Padme. The killing children part, if they were sure they wanted to do that, should have been a last chance at showing conflict in him. Have him really struggle with the act, but have Palpatine convince/force him to do it to finally show Palpatine's influence over him.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:23 am to BulldogXero
He spent a lot of time meditating in order to see the future so he could work it to his liking.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:26 am to BulldogXero
quote:
Palpatine was Chancellor over 10 years by the time of Episode 3, and he never framed the Jedi.
I think in the novelization of RotS, Palpatine recorded the Jedi's "attack" on him and doctored it to make look they were there to kill him.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:29 am to BulldogXero
He revealed to them that he had control of the Senate and after he killed 3 of the 4 jedi, Windu knew his plan was to have the Republic turn against the jedi. He tells anakin he has to kill him because if he escapes, he'll fully take control of the senate and courts and the jedi will be wiped out.
It would be easy to control the narrative if he kills him, then revealed he was a sith that killed 3 jedi.
I agree with this. One of the themes is that the jedi lost their way throughout the war. Even though Anakin may not have turned, the jedi still would've been wiped out because the plan would have been complete, since he had control of the senate and courts.
It was a really long plan that, with the jedi dead as the end game. He needed complete control first.
It would be easy to control the narrative if he kills him, then revealed he was a sith that killed 3 jedi.
quote:
The fact that Mace wanted to kill Palpatine is also a pretty big reason why Anakin chose to turn to the dark side. If the Jedi chose not to act so quickly or attempted to go through the Senate first, I think Anakin would've had a much harder time reasoning in his mind that the Jedi were evil.
I agree with this. One of the themes is that the jedi lost their way throughout the war. Even though Anakin may not have turned, the jedi still would've been wiped out because the plan would have been complete, since he had control of the senate and courts.
quote:
Palpatine was Chancellor over 10 years by the time of Episode 3, and he never framed the Jedi.
It was a really long plan that, with the jedi dead as the end game. He needed complete control first.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:48 am to JetsetNuggs
quote:
I agree with this. One of the themes is that the jedi lost their way throughout the war. Even though Anakin may not have turned, the jedi still would've been wiped out because the plan would have been complete, since he had control of the senate and courts.
Until the Deathstar is built, how does the Empire maintain order in the galaxy without the support of the senate?
I don't see fabricating treason against the entire Jedi order going over well without proof.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 11:56 am to BulldogXero
quote:
I don't see fabricating treason against the entire Jedi order going over well without proof.
Good thing he had proof.
quote:
Until the Deathstar is built, how does the Empire maintain order in the galaxy without the support of the senate?
They don't, that's why they built the death star. The senate was still very much present, even in the beginning of ANH. The death star then did away with that.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 2:39 pm to BulldogXero
quote:Yes, Palpatine was a conniving and scheming politician. They all operate like that, to varying degrees of success; his plan worked.
It strikes me that Palpatine's plan to take over the galaxy hinged on a lot of things going a very specific way.
quote:Then Palpatine is stopped or delayed. Frankly, given the amount of intrigue he's set in motion, if Padme doesn't follow his lead, he probably assassinates her, and uses that to fan public sentiment for his measures.
For example, he used the Naboo crisis to be elected Supreme Chancellor. What would've happened if the Queen refused to call for a vote of no confidence or if Palpatine lost the election?
quote:The conflict spread from the initial slapdown of the Trade Federation (causing other powerful groups to look askance at Republic interference).
Then, in Attack of the Clones, he manufactures a conflict between the Republic and the Separatists as an excuse to be granted emergency powers and legalize the creation of a military force. What does he do if he is never granted emergency powers? Does he serve out his term and go away or create some other, more serious conflict?
Yes, if he fails to achieve what he sought, he continues to scheme in the background, and may never get his way. But in his case, he does.
quote:As the Trade Federation is a major part of the Separatists, that puts Naboo front and center for the emotional appeal. Naboo can state that the Separatists don't just want to be independent, they want to attack and control peaceful systems (as they did to Naboo).
It would seem that he could've had someone else in the senate make the proposal but given that he relied so much on the absence of Padme and the manipulation of Jar Jar, it wouldn't appear so.
Alderaan or Corellia would be arguing the matter over principle, and would need to be convinced that drastic measures are needed. Naboo is arguing from firsthand experience, and they are doing the convincing.
quote:Well, given the Jedi's prominence in the Republic, being Sith may very well be tantamount to treason.
Then, in Revenge of the Sith, when they Jedi find out that Palpatine is a Sith lord, they immediately go to his office to try to kill him. First off, is it a crime to be a Sith lord? Do they have evidence to link him to any actual crimes such as treason against the Republic? What if the Jedi had simply stood back and not done anything about Palpatine? Why not go to the Senate first and ask Palpatine to give up his emergency powers now that the war is over?
I believe in the EU, it was established that the Sith previously controlled the galaxy before being overthrown. I'm guessing it's something like finding out your elected leader is actually a Nazi or a Communist, seeking to revive Hitler's Reich or the Soviet Union.
Or to take a more medieval angle, imagine the Vatican finding out the French or Holy Roman Empire leader is actually a Satanist and a witch. Such an offense would not be addressed merely with words, they'd come to take his head.
Posted on 4/3/18 at 3:22 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
I've only watched it all the way through once way back.
But he called the Senate to order immediately after the attack and showed his wounds from the attempted Jedi coup.
Used that as a bloody shirt to forge the empire while padme and organa stood by and kicked rocks.
Palpatine was hitler taking the chancellorship, Caesar taking the appointment for life, and Augustus creating the empire all in one.
From that point on it went to him using the Senate as a dog and pony show while he was the power with Vader at large, grand admirals over large sectors and planetary governor's under them.
Then in Star Wars he gives up the charade and dissolves the Senate because rebels are using it to hide agents. But really it's all the pieces are in place.
But he called the Senate to order immediately after the attack and showed his wounds from the attempted Jedi coup.
Used that as a bloody shirt to forge the empire while padme and organa stood by and kicked rocks.
Palpatine was hitler taking the chancellorship, Caesar taking the appointment for life, and Augustus creating the empire all in one.
From that point on it went to him using the Senate as a dog and pony show while he was the power with Vader at large, grand admirals over large sectors and planetary governor's under them.
Then in Star Wars he gives up the charade and dissolves the Senate because rebels are using it to hide agents. But really it's all the pieces are in place.
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