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Article: Why GoT feels so different now

Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:13 pm
Posted by skrayper
21-0 Asterisk Drive
Member since Nov 2012
30832 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:13 pm
Initial Article

quote:

A Perfect Explanation Of Why 'Game Of Thrones' Feels So Different Now
May 13, 2019

Daniel Silvermint, a Ph.D. in philosophy from the University of Arizona, took to Twitter to give his take on why "Game Of Thrones" Season 8 feels so different from a behind-the-scenes perspective.

This is what Silverint wrote:

"It has to do with the behind-the-scenes process of plotters vs. pantsers. If you're not familiar with the distinction, plotters create a fairly detailed outline before they commit a single word to the page.

Pantsers discover the story as they write it, often treating the first draft like one big elaborate outline. Neither approach is ‘right' - it's just a way to characterize the writing process. But the two approaches do tend to have different advantages.

Because they have the whole story in mind, it's usually easier for plotters to deliver tighter stories and stick the landing when it comes to endings, but their characters can sometimes feel stiff, like they're just plot devices.

Pantsers have an easier time writing realistic characters, because they generate the plot by asking themselves what this fully-realized person would do or think next in the dramatic situation the writer has dropped them in.

But because pantsers are making it up as they go along (hence the name: they're flying by the seat of their pants), they're prone to meandering plots and can struggle to bring everything together in a satisfying conclusion.

That's why a lot of writers plot their stories but pants their characters, and use the second draft to reconcile conflicts between the two.

What does this have to do with Game of Thrones?

Well, GRRM is one of the most epic pantsers around. He talks about writing like cultivating a garden. He plants character seeds and carefully lets them grow and grow.

That's why every plot point and fair-in-hindsight surprise landed with such devastating weight: everything that happened to these characters happened because of their past choices. But it's also the reason why the narrative momentum of the books slowed over time.

After the first big plot arc, book four was originally going to skip ahead five years. But GRRM didn't know how to make the gap in action feel true to the characters or the world, so he eventually decided to just write his way through those five years instead.

Which meant planting more seeds, and watching those grow. And suddenly his garden was overgrown, and hard to prune without abrupt or forced resolutions. He had no choice but to follow each and every one of those plot threads, even when they didn't really matter to the story.

And now that the plants were fully in control, he struggled to get some of the characters that had grown one way to go where they needed to be for the story. (Dany getting stuck in Meereen is the example he frequently cites.)

And because he had all this story to cover and pay off, some of which was growing in the wrong directions and needed enough narrative space to come back around, he started increasing the number of books he thought it would take him to complete the series. And, well.

So the books the showrunners were adapting ran out. What now? People assume the show suffered because they didn't have GRRM's rich material to draw on anymore, as if the problem was that he's simply better at generating new plots than they are. But that's not what happened.

For a season or two, the showrunners actually tried to take over management of GRRM's sprawling garden, with understandably mixed results. When that didn't work, they shifted their focus to trying to bring this huge beast in for a landing.

They gave themselves a fixed endpoint - 13 episodes to the finale, and no more - and set about reverse-engineering the rest of the story they wanted to tell.

You see, I think the showrunners are not only plotters, they're ending-focused plotters by design.

They want to deliver an ultimately satisfying experience. So with only two seasons to work with, they started asking themselves what was left to do. What could they build with the pieces left in the box? What beats did they just have to include?

What big moments did they want to deliver? Where should the characters end up? What did they think we, the audience, wanted to see on screen before the show came to an end? It was a Game of Thrones bucket list.

And once they had that list, it was time to connect the dots to make it all happen. So they started maneuvering the characters into the emotional and literal places they needed to be for all those dots to connect up in the right way.

That's why Game of Thrones feels different now. A show that had been about the weight of the past became about the spectacle of the present. Characters with incredible depth and agency - all the more rope with which to hang themselves - became pieces on a giant war map.

Where once the characters authored their own, terrible destinies, now they were forced to take uncharacteristic actions and make uncharacteristically bad decisions so the necessary plot points could happen and the appropriate stakes could be felt.

Organic developments gave way to contrivance. Naturally-paced character arcs were rushed. Living plants became puppets of the plot. The characters just weren't in charge anymore. The ending was.

No one's to blame. Keeping a million plates spinning the way GRRM did is hard. And setting those plates down without breaking too many, which the showrunners had to do, is also really hard. Creation in general is hard.

There's a reason writers have haunted eyes and always seem like they need a hug. Give everyone a break. But: the shift in approach did have consequences.

Is pantsing better than plotting? No. And this has nothing to do with which approach is ‘right', anyway. It's about the approach changing in the third act. That's the sort of thing an audience can feel happening, even if they can't put their finger on exactly why.

The audience fell in love with one kind of show, but the ending is being imported from a different kind of show. Now, I happen to think the finale will stick the landing. It's what the showrunners have been building toward these past two seasons, after all.

But to be satisfying, it matters how we get there, too. Treating the journey as equally important is how you get endings that feel earned. And it's how characters keep feeling real the whole way through, even though they're completing arcs some writer has chosen for them.

By placing so much emphasis on the ending, the showrunners changed the nature of the story they were telling, meaning the original story and the original characters aren't the ones getting an ending. Their substitutes are.

That's why no amount of spectacle or fan service can make this ending as satisfying as it should be. Resolutions invite us to consider the story as a whole; where it all started, where it all ended up. And we can feel the discontinuity in this one."


Creator's Twitter Feed
Posted by PsychTiger
Member since Jul 2004
98683 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:17 pm to
So, we've all been pantsed.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
421188 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:31 pm to
quote:

They gave themselves a fixed endpoint - 13 episodes to the finale, and no more


the ultimate failure of their plotting

i think the author in OP gives too much credit to the "plotting" also. they may have started that before season 7, but i don't think they had a full plan after season 4 (when they were getting out on their own)

season 5 was terrible

season 6 was a slight improvement

THEN they created a plan to finish the series in effectively 1.5 seasons of episodes, for no real reason

season 7 was the worst season ever and it's not shocking
Posted by Frac the world
The Centennial State
Member since Oct 2014
16755 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:42 pm to
I think that’s spot on and shared the blame correctly between fat man and dumb and dumber.

Fat man created such a massive story with so many characters it bogged down because he created so many storylines and timelines that needed to converge perfectly. He doesn’t know how the frick to do that so he’s stalled out.

D&D are to blame because like he says, they reverse engineered the story to force characters into the endings that were planned in only 13 episodes.

There is a DRASTIC change in quality in seasons 7-8. All the white knighters who won’t admit that are just too stubborn to admit it.

The spectacle has been outstanding, but it doesn’t hold a candle to the writing, characters, and storylines of seasons 1-4

It’s even funnier when you see compilations of D&D after the episodes directly contradicting everything they’ve said over the years.


Posted by KosmoCramer
Member since Dec 2007
76449 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:43 pm to
They needed a contingency if GRRM didn't finish, and they didnt.

They pulled a Dany and meandered around Essos aimlessly for seasons and just threw an ending together.

It's clear as day what happened.
Posted by Jack Daniel
In the bottle
Member since Feb 2013
25397 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:46 pm to
D&D are pantsers alright. They pulled all our pants down and fricked us right in the butt
Posted by Jay Are
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2014
4830 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:57 pm to
Neither plotter nor pantser is "right", but one definitely sounds more insulting. Why call it panting when he spends so many words on gardening metaphors. The obvious choice there would be "planter."

Plotter plot out the story, planters spread the seeds and let things grow naturally.

Anyway, thanks for a bunch of speculation. Anything that attempts to dive deep into authorial intent before the whole picture has been revealed is click-bait artistry. From a philosophy PhD.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20294 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 1:02 pm to
This sounds like a valid point, and it does explain a lot of the discomfort experienced the past couple seasons.

All I can say is this- if that's the case, the finale should be excellent. And it better be, because things have gotten pretty rough this season on certain aspects. That's mostly forgivable if they, as stated, "stick the ending". But if they don't, there's going to be a huge pushback.

Thus far, I'm happy with the ending of Hound/Mountain, and I didn't mind Cersei/Jaime (him holding and comforting her as it all comes crashing down around her). I suppose Euron fits (at least the show version, I hear the book version was different); he's just an anarchist, and he wants to kill Jaime (get another notch in his belt) rather than flee to safety.
Posted by Damone
FoCo
Member since Aug 2016
32460 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 2:01 pm to
quote:

Fat man created such a massive story with so many characters it bogged down because he created so many storylines and timelines that needed to converge perfectly. He doesn’t know how the frick to do that so he’s stalled out.

I don't know if that's fair to say, I think he could sit down and conclude it all in a consistent manner, but he clearly does not have that dedication at this point. It wouldn't be surprising at all if he continued the books in his manner of writing and ended up reaching different conclusions than what was presented in the show.

quote:

D&D are to blame because like he says, they reverse engineered the story to force characters into the endings that were planned in only 13 episodes.

This is so true. Why the limitation? Budget? I don't know why HBO would be in a rush to ditch a megahit like GoT. Did they want to move onto other projects? I don't get it. Seasons 7-8 could have been fleshed out over probably 10 episodes each to better set up the characters for the decisions that ultimately lead them to their respective fates.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 2:39 pm
Posted by Dam Guide
Member since Sep 2005
15495 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 2:15 pm to
quote:

Neither plotter nor pantser is "right", but one definitely sounds more insulting. Why call it panting when he spends so many words on gardening metaphors. The obvious choice there would be "planter."


Because he didn't make up the terms, google it. It's common terms for writers that he used to craft his opinion on GoT.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 2:16 pm
Posted by Marciano1
Marksville, LA
Member since Jun 2009
18394 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 2:19 pm to
quote:

Why the limitation? Budget? I don't know why HBO would be in a rush to ditch a megahit like GoT. Did they want to move onto other projects? I don't get i. Seasons 7-8 could have been fleshed out over probably 10 episodes each to better set up the characters for the decisions that ultimately lead them to their respective fates.

HBO would've given them all the time they needed. That show is part of the reason the network cut back and ultimately got rid of boxing. HBO was all-in on GoT.
Posted by Dam Guide
Member since Sep 2005
15495 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 2:22 pm to
quote:

Did they want to move onto other projects?


This is what everyone thinks, leaks at HBO show the network was more than willing to have 10 episodes for Season 7 and 8. They were even willing to have more seasons. D&D ultimately decided the episode count and what they needed. They wanted to move on from GoT by the looks of it for whatever reason.
Posted by Damone
FoCo
Member since Aug 2016
32460 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 2:39 pm to
quote:

This is what everyone thinks, leaks at HBO show the network was more than willing to have 10 episodes for Season 7 and 8. They were even willing to have more seasons.

I have zero doubt that they would have. As the poster above you said, HBO was all-in on GoT. They have multiple spinoffs in the works and the #1 rule in entertainment is you never walk away from a hit show, that goes for everyone involved. The only possible explanation is D&D wanted to strike while the iron was hot in terms of their reputation and not get pigeon-holed in the GoT universe with HBO.
Posted by TideWarrior
Asheville/Chapel Hill NC
Member since Sep 2009
11826 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 2:44 pm to
I agree with this. As I have enjoyed the episodes, at least the visuals, but the characters were basically nuked and their story arcs destroyed after such a great job of developing them.

I also think part of the frustration, for me at least, was even how the last two season went or are going that had the opportunity to still deliver on the ending arcs but yet decided not to. It feels cheap how they are killing some off.
Posted by SabiDojo
Open to any suggestions.
Member since Nov 2010
83924 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 2:49 pm to
quote:

It’s even funnier when you see compilations of D&D after the episodes directly contradicting everything they’ve said over the years.


This is why I don’t understand how people can defend them. They contradict themselves the very next episode.
Posted by KosmoCramer
Member since Dec 2007
76449 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:04 pm to
quote:

This is why I don’t understand how people can defend them. They contradict themselves the very next episode.


"The interesting thing about it is, we just forgot everything that happened in seasons 1 through 4"


- D & D post episode 6
Posted by 1BamaRTR
In Your Head Blvd
Member since Apr 2015
22510 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:08 pm to
D&D in episode 3:
That was the end of the Dorthraki

Dorthraki in episode 5:
oolululuolulu
Posted by skrayper
21-0 Asterisk Drive
Member since Nov 2012
30832 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:20 pm to
quote:

Neither plotter nor pantser is "right", but one definitely sounds more insulting. Why call it panting when he spends so many words on gardening metaphors. The obvious choice there would be "planter."


This would be like complaining about a person using the phrase "Mary Sue" to describe a character because you don't like the term, disregarding the fact that the person is just using a term that was already in the lexicon.
Posted by skrayper
21-0 Asterisk Drive
Member since Nov 2012
30832 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:21 pm to
quote:

HBO would've given them all the time they needed. That show is part of the reason the network cut back and ultimately got rid of boxing. HBO was all-in on GoT.


I know John Oliver is polarizing figure here, but to focus on your point even he has been stating about how HBO was all for GoT and even jokes about how he'll be unemployed as soon as it isn't a lead-in for his show anymore.
Posted by ShootingsBricks4Life
Member since May 2017
2601 posts
Posted on 5/14/19 at 4:13 pm to
quote:

it isn't a lead-in for his show anymore.


Well it stopped being the lead-in for his show this year and maybe last year?
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