- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: A&E Biography is back: Bret Hart premiere
Posted on 5/5/21 at 5:18 pm to moontigr
Posted on 5/5/21 at 5:18 pm to moontigr
quote:
Michaels is nowhere near Top 3 all-time overall. As a performer maybe, but he wasn’t a top draw and his overall impact pales in comparison to many others.
Austin
Hogan
Bruno
(Honorable mention The Rock Imo for New York's drawing power)
Eta
Michaels is top 15 though
This post was edited on 5/5/21 at 5:28 pm
1
Posted on 5/5/21 at 8:20 pm to moontigr
quote:
They did that same match dozens of times at various arenas around the country. Andre’s claim was that the bell never rang, so therefore it shouldn’t count. The card at the Centroplex you’re referring to was on November 10, 1989. I was there also.
Other matches on the card:
The Canadian Earthquake pinned Tim Horner
Al Perez pinned Barry Horowitz
Ronnie Garvin & Greg Valentine fought to a draw
Hercules defeated Akeem by countout
The Honky Tonk Man pinned The Red Rooster
The Rockers defeated The Fabulous Rougeau Bros.
Yeah I’m assuming you saw the same website I did with the results from all the shows that year. I also saw that UW and AtG did a match several other times at different arenas. And don’t get me wrong, I don’t expect the belt to change hands at a house show but damn, they could actually have an actual match.
I think my mom even bitched and tried to get a refund since the “main event” was that 30 second bullshite. She was absolutely furious.
Posted on 5/6/21 at 6:37 am to CocomoLSU
Andre was in pretty bad shape at that point, so they were trying to make it as easy on him as possible. Notice that when they faced each other on SNME, the match was much different.
Posted on 5/6/21 at 10:40 am to moontigr
The list is bullshite....26 people voted and it probably happened in Meltzer's basement
If you look at Shawn Michael's entire career and can still say he wasn't a draw that is just dumb. Sure he didn't draw for WWE from 94-96 but nobody did....FWIW WCW wasn't drawing then either...it's kind of like now the whole business was down.
Michael's paved the way for Rock and Austin...he showed the business that is what people wanted to see even before Hall and Nash left for WCW. Then he came back in in the early 2000s and was a top of the card draw guy...then in the mid-2000s turned into a guy that made superstars on the mid-card and was still a draw. Not admitting that and putting fricking Lou Thesz as the best pro wrestler of all time is just laughable.
My pinky finger has as much charisma as Lou Thesz.
ETA Michaels putting over SCSA at WM14 was the 2nd most important moment in the genesis of the Stone Cold character after the KOTR 97 promo. Without a guy like HBK to work with who knows if Austin would have gotten over like he did.
If you look at Shawn Michael's entire career and can still say he wasn't a draw that is just dumb. Sure he didn't draw for WWE from 94-96 but nobody did....FWIW WCW wasn't drawing then either...it's kind of like now the whole business was down.
Michael's paved the way for Rock and Austin...he showed the business that is what people wanted to see even before Hall and Nash left for WCW. Then he came back in in the early 2000s and was a top of the card draw guy...then in the mid-2000s turned into a guy that made superstars on the mid-card and was still a draw. Not admitting that and putting fricking Lou Thesz as the best pro wrestler of all time is just laughable.
My pinky finger has as much charisma as Lou Thesz.
ETA Michaels putting over SCSA at WM14 was the 2nd most important moment in the genesis of the Stone Cold character after the KOTR 97 promo. Without a guy like HBK to work with who knows if Austin would have gotten over like he did.
This post was edited on 5/6/21 at 10:45 am
Posted on 5/6/21 at 11:49 am to LSU316
You’re in denial, friend. Those “26 people” are some of the premier wrestling historians on the planet. The Yohe Project is widely-regarded among experts as the most accurate “GOAT” list. Another solid read — even though it only includes wrestlers in the US — is “The 50 Greatest Professional Wrestlers of All-Time: The Definitive Shoot” by Larry Matysik (Michaels is #15 on his list, but again, that list is limited to primarily U.S. guys.)
Bottom line is, Michaels was never a top draw. You can throw all of the excuses for it out the window. The top guys on the list all faced their own hindrances (Londos, for example, was at his peak during the Great Depression) and still managed to draw huge crowds. Thesz had legit skills, and drew crowds that HBK can’t match, and Thesz did it without the WWF/WWE machine promoting his appearances. You don’t have to agree with it, but facts are facts. Saying that Michaels paved the way for the success of Austin and Rock is laughable.
Bottom line is, Michaels was never a top draw. You can throw all of the excuses for it out the window. The top guys on the list all faced their own hindrances (Londos, for example, was at his peak during the Great Depression) and still managed to draw huge crowds. Thesz had legit skills, and drew crowds that HBK can’t match, and Thesz did it without the WWF/WWE machine promoting his appearances. You don’t have to agree with it, but facts are facts. Saying that Michaels paved the way for the success of Austin and Rock is laughable.
This post was edited on 5/6/21 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 5/6/21 at 12:14 pm to moontigr
Yeah, Lou Thesz didn't draw more people than Stone Cold Steve Austin.
Posted on 5/6/21 at 2:39 pm to SEClint
Never said he did. However, his career lasted much longer than Austin’s run as Stone Cold, which, for the record, was established a decade after he first started. For that decade, Austin didn’t draw a dime. Thesz was a consistent draw over a much longer period.
This post was edited on 5/6/21 at 2:43 pm
Posted on 5/6/21 at 3:52 pm to moontigr
quote:
Those “26 people” are some of the premier wrestling marks on the planet.
FIFY
Posted on 5/6/21 at 4:00 pm to moontigr
quote:
Thesz had legit skills, and drew crowds that HBK can’t match
bullshite Micheals main evented WM 23 in front of 80K people.....Thesz probably went years where 80000 people didn’t see him wrestle.
Vince McMahon himself has said the curtain call in 1996 orchestrated by HBK and Diesel was the beginning of the true attitude era....but that he just didn’t get on board for a year or 2. I mean everything Shawn and Diesel did in their run together in WWE was attitude driven. To say Shawn didn’t pave the way for the attitude era is simply wrong and makes you sound like you don’t know what you are talking about.
Posted on 5/6/21 at 7:21 pm to LSU316
I’m not going to argue with you because you obviously have a fixed opinion and nothing I say is going to alter that. Calling these voters “marks” and saying that there were likely years when 80000 fans combined didn’t see Thesz wrestle just shows how ignorant you are to the whole thing. You probably think wrestling was never popular until Hogan’s first boom in 84.
As I’ve stated before, I’ve worked on and off in this business since 1989 in various capacities. I’ve studied WWWF/WWF/WWE history extensively. I’ve posted Shawn’s drawing numbers before and they aren’t good. The mid-90s were a terrible period in the history of the company. Posting a single 80,000 crowd and saying it’s superior to anything Thesz ever drew is missing the entire point. You certainly are entitled to your opinion and I respect it; I’m just saying that there aren’t too many historians who would agree with it. Austin & Rock’s popularity boom had very little, if anything, to do with Shawn Michaels. Heck, he even wanted to bury The Rock because he perceived him as a threat.
In regards to Thesz’s drawing power, I’ll leave you this:
Thesz set records that not only WILL never, but CAN never, be broken. Turning pro at 19 in 1935, he won his first of six World Titles in 1937 at 21, the youngest champion ever, and lost his last in 1966 at age 50, the oldest champ ever. He was still contending for lesser versions of the World Championship in 1980, and wrestled his last match--an exhibition in Japan where he was revered as one of the "Gods of puro resu"--in 1990 when he was 74, becoming the first man to wrestle in seven different decades.
Along the way, Thesz was both respected and feared in the locker rooms as the best "real" wrestler in the game. He had no NCAA credentials like Jack Brisco or Danny Hodge, rather he was a personal protege of "Strangler" Lewis and other old hookers--the most dangerous form of shooter--like George Tragos and Ad Santel. Thesz knew how to hurt you, badly and quickly. The promoters loved Thesz as champion for the aura of legitimacy he projected, the way he carried himself as a champion and real pro athlete, and his ability to protect their belt from potential double crosses.
In an increasingly outrageous business, Thesz allowed no foolishness, and played it straight. To the fans, Thesz made the NWA World Title something "real" in an ever-more-show business environment.
Lou Thesz was a living link that lasted from the Depression era of Lewis and Londos, through the war years, the advent of television, the formation of the territories, and finally to the brink of the WWF expansion, an amazing record for longevity due to his fanatical conditioning and freakish genetics.
Thesz' longest NWA Title reign--his fourth--began in 1948, when he beat Longson, and lasted a record eight years straight. Thesz practically owned the 1950's box office, being #1 draw six times between 1950 and 1957, and he was #1 again in 1966 during his final reign. As the NWA Champion, Thesz and the World Heavyweight Boxing Champion were the highest-paid professional athletes in the United States in the early 1950's. He was a top 10 draw TWENTY ONE different years between 1938 and 1968, tied with Londos for most top 10 spots and longest spread of years.
Thesz' World Championship defense against Baron Michele Leone in Los Angeles in 1952 drew wrestling's first hundred thousand dollar gate, when 25,246 fans paid $103,277 ($970,000 in 2019), breaking the Lewis-Londos record from 1934.
Thesz' last NWA Title run wasn't in the cards at first. Dates on the champion, Buddy Rogers, were being dominated by Vince McMahon Sr. to the exclusion of other NWA promoters, so a switch was called for, and Thesz was brought back to make sure things went according to plan. At the bell, Thesz echoed his old mentor Lewis' remarks from twenty years prior--"Buddy, we can do this the easy way, or the hard way". Rogers chose the easy path. Lou held the belt another 3 years before dropping it to Gene Kiniski in 1966. In his six reigns over a twenty nine year period, Lou Thesz held the biggest version of the World Championship in the sport of wrestling a total of 10 years, 3 months and 9 days, or 3749 days--another record.
Lou was disenchanted, to say the least, with the "entertainment" wrestling that became popular in his later years. He was from a time when the World Wrestling Champion was on the same newspaper page with Babe Ruth and Joe Louis--and made even more money. Lou was always willing to share tales of those days with historians.
Lou Thesz defied the laws of time and age and remained active right up until his death in 2002 at age 86, having been literally the top star in wrestling to three different generations of fans, and a timeless ambassador and champion of the image of the sport.
Your first step is recognizing the fact that the truth is that you know very little. I suggest visiting such sites as wrestlingclassics.com and kayfabememories.com if you’d care to learn.
As I’ve stated before, I’ve worked on and off in this business since 1989 in various capacities. I’ve studied WWWF/WWF/WWE history extensively. I’ve posted Shawn’s drawing numbers before and they aren’t good. The mid-90s were a terrible period in the history of the company. Posting a single 80,000 crowd and saying it’s superior to anything Thesz ever drew is missing the entire point. You certainly are entitled to your opinion and I respect it; I’m just saying that there aren’t too many historians who would agree with it. Austin & Rock’s popularity boom had very little, if anything, to do with Shawn Michaels. Heck, he even wanted to bury The Rock because he perceived him as a threat.
In regards to Thesz’s drawing power, I’ll leave you this:
Thesz set records that not only WILL never, but CAN never, be broken. Turning pro at 19 in 1935, he won his first of six World Titles in 1937 at 21, the youngest champion ever, and lost his last in 1966 at age 50, the oldest champ ever. He was still contending for lesser versions of the World Championship in 1980, and wrestled his last match--an exhibition in Japan where he was revered as one of the "Gods of puro resu"--in 1990 when he was 74, becoming the first man to wrestle in seven different decades.
Along the way, Thesz was both respected and feared in the locker rooms as the best "real" wrestler in the game. He had no NCAA credentials like Jack Brisco or Danny Hodge, rather he was a personal protege of "Strangler" Lewis and other old hookers--the most dangerous form of shooter--like George Tragos and Ad Santel. Thesz knew how to hurt you, badly and quickly. The promoters loved Thesz as champion for the aura of legitimacy he projected, the way he carried himself as a champion and real pro athlete, and his ability to protect their belt from potential double crosses.
In an increasingly outrageous business, Thesz allowed no foolishness, and played it straight. To the fans, Thesz made the NWA World Title something "real" in an ever-more-show business environment.
Lou Thesz was a living link that lasted from the Depression era of Lewis and Londos, through the war years, the advent of television, the formation of the territories, and finally to the brink of the WWF expansion, an amazing record for longevity due to his fanatical conditioning and freakish genetics.
Thesz' longest NWA Title reign--his fourth--began in 1948, when he beat Longson, and lasted a record eight years straight. Thesz practically owned the 1950's box office, being #1 draw six times between 1950 and 1957, and he was #1 again in 1966 during his final reign. As the NWA Champion, Thesz and the World Heavyweight Boxing Champion were the highest-paid professional athletes in the United States in the early 1950's. He was a top 10 draw TWENTY ONE different years between 1938 and 1968, tied with Londos for most top 10 spots and longest spread of years.
Thesz' World Championship defense against Baron Michele Leone in Los Angeles in 1952 drew wrestling's first hundred thousand dollar gate, when 25,246 fans paid $103,277 ($970,000 in 2019), breaking the Lewis-Londos record from 1934.
Thesz' last NWA Title run wasn't in the cards at first. Dates on the champion, Buddy Rogers, were being dominated by Vince McMahon Sr. to the exclusion of other NWA promoters, so a switch was called for, and Thesz was brought back to make sure things went according to plan. At the bell, Thesz echoed his old mentor Lewis' remarks from twenty years prior--"Buddy, we can do this the easy way, or the hard way". Rogers chose the easy path. Lou held the belt another 3 years before dropping it to Gene Kiniski in 1966. In his six reigns over a twenty nine year period, Lou Thesz held the biggest version of the World Championship in the sport of wrestling a total of 10 years, 3 months and 9 days, or 3749 days--another record.
Lou was disenchanted, to say the least, with the "entertainment" wrestling that became popular in his later years. He was from a time when the World Wrestling Champion was on the same newspaper page with Babe Ruth and Joe Louis--and made even more money. Lou was always willing to share tales of those days with historians.
Lou Thesz defied the laws of time and age and remained active right up until his death in 2002 at age 86, having been literally the top star in wrestling to three different generations of fans, and a timeless ambassador and champion of the image of the sport.
Your first step is recognizing the fact that the truth is that you know very little. I suggest visiting such sites as wrestlingclassics.com and kayfabememories.com if you’d care to learn.
This post was edited on 5/6/21 at 7:25 pm
Posted on 5/6/21 at 7:30 pm to moontigr
quote:What about weekly television ratings on RAW when he was a large player on the roster? The venues of 17,000-20,000 seats are sold out weekly, and millions are watching at home? Not trying to argue, but it feels that has to count for something. Him putting people over through a good match was helpful and entertaining television
I’ve posted Shawn’s drawing numbers before and they aren’t good.
Even back when there was a legit USA vs Canada rivalry going, before the screw job it was must see tv.
quote:Well..he was smart for the business lol what a fun rivalry that could have been.
Heck, he even wanted to bury The Rock because he perceived him as a threat.
quote:
For that decade, Austin didn’t draw a dime.
Mismanagement in a very different business, even Vince almost fumbled it. I liked the blonds though, they made it work.
Speaking of, this picture bummed me out.
Bret Hart vs Austin was my favorite rivalry Austin ever had for his in-ring work.
Eta
Think Lawler was more over regionally in Memphis than anyone anywhere else? I guess I'm too young to fully remember the territories.
This post was edited on 5/6/21 at 8:04 pm
Posted on 5/6/21 at 8:13 pm to SEClint
All-time Top Draws:
The formula is largely based on matches that drew 10,000 fans (and an extra point if topping 20,000, a third point if topping 30,000, etc.)
1908 - Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt
1909 - Frank Gotch
1910 - 1. Great Gama and Stanislaus Zbyszko
1911 - 1. Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt
1912 - 1. Frank Gotch
1913 - 1. Stanislaus Zbyszko and George Lurich
1914 - Unavailable
1915 - 1. Charley Cutler
1916 - 1. Joe Stecher
1917 - 1. Joe Stecher
1918 - 1. Joe Stecher
1919 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis
1920 - 1. Joe Stecher
1921 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis
1922 - 1. Stanislaus Zbyszko
1923 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis
1924 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis and Jim Londos
1925 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis, Joe Stecher, Wayne Munn and Stanislaus Zbyszko
1926 - 1. Jim Londos
1927 - 1. Jim Londos and John Pesek
1928 - 1. Jim Londos
1929 - 1. Gus Sonnenberg
1930 - 1. Dick Shikat and Jim Londos
1931 - 1. Jim Londos
1932 - 1. Jim Londos
1933 - 1. Jim Londos
1934 - 1. Jim Londos
1935 - 1. Danno O’Mahoney
1936 - 1. Danno O’Mahoney
1937 - 1. Jim Londos
1938 - 1. Jim Londos and Steve Casey
1939 - 1. Jim Londos, Vincent Lopez and Dave Levin
1940 - 1. Jim Londos
1941 - 1. Bill Longson
1942 - 1. Bill Longson
1943 - 1. Bill Longson
1944 - 1. Bill Longson
1945 - 1. Bill Longson
1946 - 1. Bill Longson
1947 - 1. Bill Longson
1948 - 1. Gorgeous George
1949 - 1. Gorgeous George and Whipper Billy Watson
1950 - 1. Lou Thesz and Argentina Rocca
1951 - 1. Lou Thesz
1952 - 1. Lou Thesz
1953 - 1. Lou Thesz and Blue Demon
1954 - 1. Argentina Rocca
1955 - 1. Lou Thesz
1956 - 1. Argentina Rocca and Whipper Billy Watson
1957 - 1. Lou Thesz
1958 - 1. Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez
1959 - 1. Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez
1960 - 1. Buddy Rogers
1961 - 1. Buddy Rogers (set all-time record for biggest single year draw)
1962 - 1. Buddy Rogers
1963 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1964 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1965 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1966 - 1. Lou Thesz
1967 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1968 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1969 - 1. The Sheik
1970 - 1. The Sheik
1971 - 1. The Sheik
1972 - 1. The Sheik
1973 - 1. The Sheik
1974 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1975 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1976 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1977 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham
1978 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham
1979 - 1. Bob Backlund
1980 - 1. Bob Backlund
1981 - 1. Bob Backlund
1982 - 1. Bob Backlund (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1983 - 1. Ric Flair
1984 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1985 - 1 Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1986 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1987 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1988 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1989 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1990 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1991 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1992 - 1. Ric Flair
1993 - 1. Konnan
1994 - 1. Konnan
1995 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto
1996 - 1. Nobuhiko Takada
1997 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto
1998 - 1. Steve Austin (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1999 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
2000 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
2001 - 1. Steve Austin
2002 -1. The Rock
2003 - 1. Brock Lesnar
2004 - 1. HHH
2005 - 1. Kenta Kobashi
2006 - 1. Mistico
2007 - 1. John Cena
2008 - 1. Mistico
2009 - 1. John Cena (**Brock Lesnar was overall #1 draw in the world, but was in UFC)
2010 - 1. John Cena (**Brock Lesnar was overall #1 draw in the world, but was in UFC)
2011 - 1. John Cena (**Brock Lesnar was overall #1 draw in the world, but was in UFC)
2012 - 1. John Cena
2013 - 1. John Cena
2014 - 1. John Cena
2015 - 1. Brock Lesnar
2016 - 1. Brock Lesnar
2017 - 1. Kenny Omega
2018 - 1. Kenny Omega
2019 - 1. Chris Jericho
2020 - 1. Jon Moxley
By decade:
1900 - 1909: 1. Frank Gotch; 2. George Hackenschmidt
1910 - 1919: 1. Joe Stecher; 2. Ed "Strangler" Lewis; 3. Frank Gotch; 4. Wladek Zbyszko; 5. Stanislaus Zbyszko; 6. Jim Londos; 7. Great Gama, George Hackenschmidt, George Lurich, Charlie Cutler
1920 -1929: 1. Ed "Strangler" Lewis; 2. Jim Londos; 3. John Pesek; 4. Joe Stecher and Stanislaus Zbyszko; 6. Earl Caddock; 7. Gus Sonnenberg; 8. Ray Steele; 9. Dick Shikat; 10. Wayne Munn
1930 - 1939: 1. Jim Londos; 2. Everett Marshall; 3. Dick Shikat and Ed Don George; 5. Ed "Strangler" Lewis and Vincent Lopez; 7. Gus Sonnenberg; 8. Man Mountain Dean; 9. Danno O'Mahoney; 10. Ray Steele
1940 - 1949: 1. Bill Longson; 2. Lou Thesz; 3. Whipper Billy Watson; 4. Yvon Robert; 5. Gorgeous George; 6. Sandor Szabo and Wlasislow Talum; 8. Buddy Rogers; 9. Maurice "French Angel" Tillet; 10. Frank Sexton
1950 - 1959: 1. Argentina Rocca; 2. Lou Thesz; 3. Killer Kowalski; 4. Buddy Rogers; 5. Whipper Billy Watson; 6. Rikidozan; 7. El Santo; 8. Verne Gagne and Edouard Carpentier; 10. Wilbur Snyder
1960 - 1969: 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. Gene Kiniski; 3. Dick the Bruiser; 4. Johnny Valentine; 5. Lou Thesz; 6. Buddy Rogers; 7. Giant Baba; 8. Ray Stevens; 9. Bobo Brazil; 10. Fritz Von Erich
1970 - 1979: 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. The Sheik; 3. Superstar Billy Graham; 4. Andre the Giant; 5. Pedro Morales; 6. Harley Race; 7. The Crusher; 8. Dory Funk Jr. and Ernie Ladd; 10. Dick the Bruiser
1980 - 1989: 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Ric Flair; 3. Andre the Giant; 4. Bob Backlund; 5. Randy Savage; 6. Road Warriors; 7. Antonio Inoki; 8. Roddy Piper; 9. Harley Race, Sgt. Slaughter, Paul Orndorff
1990 - 1999: 1. Konnan; 2. Shinya Hashimoto; 3. Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair; 5. Perro Aguayo; 6. Keiji Muto; 7. Undertaker; 8. Bret Hart; 9. Steve Austin; 10. Nobuhiko Takada
2000 - 2009: 1. HHH; 2. Mistico; 3. John Cena; 4. The Rock; 5. Perro Aguayo Jr.; 6. Kurt Angle; 7. Ultimo Guerrero; 8. Randy Orton; 9. Kenta Kobashi and Chris Benoit
2010-2019: 1. Brock Lesnar; 2. John Cena; 3. The Rock; 4. Hiroshi Tanahashi; 5. Tetsuya Naito; 6. Kazuchika Okada; 7. LA Park; 8. Kenny Omega; 9. Chris Jericho; 10. Daniel Bryan.
Most years as "Top Draws":
13 years - Jim Londos
8 years - Bruno Sammartino and Hulk Hogan
7 years - Bill Longson, Lou Thesz, & John Cena
6 years -
5 years - Joe Stecher, Ed "Strangler" Lewis, Argentina Rocca, The Sheik
4 years - Frank Gotch, Stanislaus Zbyszko, and Bob Backlund
3 years - Buddy Rogers, The Rock, Brock Lesnar* (Lesnar was also the top draw 3 years in a row in UFC)
2 years - George Hackenschmidt, Danno O'Mahoney, Gorgeous George, Whipper Billy Watson, Superstar Billy Graham, Ric Flair, Konnan, Shinya Hashimoto, Steve Austin, Miguel Perez, Kenny Omega, and Mistico
I also have year-by-year detailed breakdowns, if needed.
The formula is largely based on matches that drew 10,000 fans (and an extra point if topping 20,000, a third point if topping 30,000, etc.)
1908 - Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt
1909 - Frank Gotch
1910 - 1. Great Gama and Stanislaus Zbyszko
1911 - 1. Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt
1912 - 1. Frank Gotch
1913 - 1. Stanislaus Zbyszko and George Lurich
1914 - Unavailable
1915 - 1. Charley Cutler
1916 - 1. Joe Stecher
1917 - 1. Joe Stecher
1918 - 1. Joe Stecher
1919 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis
1920 - 1. Joe Stecher
1921 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis
1922 - 1. Stanislaus Zbyszko
1923 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis
1924 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis and Jim Londos
1925 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis, Joe Stecher, Wayne Munn and Stanislaus Zbyszko
1926 - 1. Jim Londos
1927 - 1. Jim Londos and John Pesek
1928 - 1. Jim Londos
1929 - 1. Gus Sonnenberg
1930 - 1. Dick Shikat and Jim Londos
1931 - 1. Jim Londos
1932 - 1. Jim Londos
1933 - 1. Jim Londos
1934 - 1. Jim Londos
1935 - 1. Danno O’Mahoney
1936 - 1. Danno O’Mahoney
1937 - 1. Jim Londos
1938 - 1. Jim Londos and Steve Casey
1939 - 1. Jim Londos, Vincent Lopez and Dave Levin
1940 - 1. Jim Londos
1941 - 1. Bill Longson
1942 - 1. Bill Longson
1943 - 1. Bill Longson
1944 - 1. Bill Longson
1945 - 1. Bill Longson
1946 - 1. Bill Longson
1947 - 1. Bill Longson
1948 - 1. Gorgeous George
1949 - 1. Gorgeous George and Whipper Billy Watson
1950 - 1. Lou Thesz and Argentina Rocca
1951 - 1. Lou Thesz
1952 - 1. Lou Thesz
1953 - 1. Lou Thesz and Blue Demon
1954 - 1. Argentina Rocca
1955 - 1. Lou Thesz
1956 - 1. Argentina Rocca and Whipper Billy Watson
1957 - 1. Lou Thesz
1958 - 1. Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez
1959 - 1. Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez
1960 - 1. Buddy Rogers
1961 - 1. Buddy Rogers (set all-time record for biggest single year draw)
1962 - 1. Buddy Rogers
1963 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1964 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1965 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1966 - 1. Lou Thesz
1967 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1968 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1969 - 1. The Sheik
1970 - 1. The Sheik
1971 - 1. The Sheik
1972 - 1. The Sheik
1973 - 1. The Sheik
1974 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1975 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1976 - 1. Bruno Sammartino
1977 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham
1978 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham
1979 - 1. Bob Backlund
1980 - 1. Bob Backlund
1981 - 1. Bob Backlund
1982 - 1. Bob Backlund (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1983 - 1. Ric Flair
1984 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1985 - 1 Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1986 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1987 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1988 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1989 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1990 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1991 - 1. Hulk Hogan
1992 - 1. Ric Flair
1993 - 1. Konnan
1994 - 1. Konnan
1995 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto
1996 - 1. Nobuhiko Takada
1997 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto
1998 - 1. Steve Austin (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
1999 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
2000 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)
2001 - 1. Steve Austin
2002 -1. The Rock
2003 - 1. Brock Lesnar
2004 - 1. HHH
2005 - 1. Kenta Kobashi
2006 - 1. Mistico
2007 - 1. John Cena
2008 - 1. Mistico
2009 - 1. John Cena (**Brock Lesnar was overall #1 draw in the world, but was in UFC)
2010 - 1. John Cena (**Brock Lesnar was overall #1 draw in the world, but was in UFC)
2011 - 1. John Cena (**Brock Lesnar was overall #1 draw in the world, but was in UFC)
2012 - 1. John Cena
2013 - 1. John Cena
2014 - 1. John Cena
2015 - 1. Brock Lesnar
2016 - 1. Brock Lesnar
2017 - 1. Kenny Omega
2018 - 1. Kenny Omega
2019 - 1. Chris Jericho
2020 - 1. Jon Moxley
By decade:
1900 - 1909: 1. Frank Gotch; 2. George Hackenschmidt
1910 - 1919: 1. Joe Stecher; 2. Ed "Strangler" Lewis; 3. Frank Gotch; 4. Wladek Zbyszko; 5. Stanislaus Zbyszko; 6. Jim Londos; 7. Great Gama, George Hackenschmidt, George Lurich, Charlie Cutler
1920 -1929: 1. Ed "Strangler" Lewis; 2. Jim Londos; 3. John Pesek; 4. Joe Stecher and Stanislaus Zbyszko; 6. Earl Caddock; 7. Gus Sonnenberg; 8. Ray Steele; 9. Dick Shikat; 10. Wayne Munn
1930 - 1939: 1. Jim Londos; 2. Everett Marshall; 3. Dick Shikat and Ed Don George; 5. Ed "Strangler" Lewis and Vincent Lopez; 7. Gus Sonnenberg; 8. Man Mountain Dean; 9. Danno O'Mahoney; 10. Ray Steele
1940 - 1949: 1. Bill Longson; 2. Lou Thesz; 3. Whipper Billy Watson; 4. Yvon Robert; 5. Gorgeous George; 6. Sandor Szabo and Wlasislow Talum; 8. Buddy Rogers; 9. Maurice "French Angel" Tillet; 10. Frank Sexton
1950 - 1959: 1. Argentina Rocca; 2. Lou Thesz; 3. Killer Kowalski; 4. Buddy Rogers; 5. Whipper Billy Watson; 6. Rikidozan; 7. El Santo; 8. Verne Gagne and Edouard Carpentier; 10. Wilbur Snyder
1960 - 1969: 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. Gene Kiniski; 3. Dick the Bruiser; 4. Johnny Valentine; 5. Lou Thesz; 6. Buddy Rogers; 7. Giant Baba; 8. Ray Stevens; 9. Bobo Brazil; 10. Fritz Von Erich
1970 - 1979: 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. The Sheik; 3. Superstar Billy Graham; 4. Andre the Giant; 5. Pedro Morales; 6. Harley Race; 7. The Crusher; 8. Dory Funk Jr. and Ernie Ladd; 10. Dick the Bruiser
1980 - 1989: 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Ric Flair; 3. Andre the Giant; 4. Bob Backlund; 5. Randy Savage; 6. Road Warriors; 7. Antonio Inoki; 8. Roddy Piper; 9. Harley Race, Sgt. Slaughter, Paul Orndorff
1990 - 1999: 1. Konnan; 2. Shinya Hashimoto; 3. Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair; 5. Perro Aguayo; 6. Keiji Muto; 7. Undertaker; 8. Bret Hart; 9. Steve Austin; 10. Nobuhiko Takada
2000 - 2009: 1. HHH; 2. Mistico; 3. John Cena; 4. The Rock; 5. Perro Aguayo Jr.; 6. Kurt Angle; 7. Ultimo Guerrero; 8. Randy Orton; 9. Kenta Kobashi and Chris Benoit
2010-2019: 1. Brock Lesnar; 2. John Cena; 3. The Rock; 4. Hiroshi Tanahashi; 5. Tetsuya Naito; 6. Kazuchika Okada; 7. LA Park; 8. Kenny Omega; 9. Chris Jericho; 10. Daniel Bryan.
Most years as "Top Draws":
13 years - Jim Londos
8 years - Bruno Sammartino and Hulk Hogan
7 years - Bill Longson, Lou Thesz, & John Cena
6 years -
5 years - Joe Stecher, Ed "Strangler" Lewis, Argentina Rocca, The Sheik
4 years - Frank Gotch, Stanislaus Zbyszko, and Bob Backlund
3 years - Buddy Rogers, The Rock, Brock Lesnar* (Lesnar was also the top draw 3 years in a row in UFC)
2 years - George Hackenschmidt, Danno O'Mahoney, Gorgeous George, Whipper Billy Watson, Superstar Billy Graham, Ric Flair, Konnan, Shinya Hashimoto, Steve Austin, Miguel Perez, Kenny Omega, and Mistico
I also have year-by-year detailed breakdowns, if needed.
This post was edited on 5/6/21 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 5/6/21 at 8:29 pm to SEClint
quote:
Think Lawler was more over regionally in Memphis than anyone anywhere else? I guess I'm too young to fully remember the territories.
Probably Bruno in that wwwf territory. They treat him like a God still in the Northeast, where those of who grew up in the south and Mid-South territory for example are like "eh" towards him.
Posted on 5/6/21 at 8:34 pm to moontigr
quote:
2017 - 1. Kenny Omega
2018 - 1. Kenny Omega
Posted on 5/6/21 at 9:17 pm to moontigr
Holy fricking wall of text.
The fact is everything you said about Thesz may be true but the fact of the matter is it was all a work....a fricking work...it always had been and the fact is in an age of “smart” fans Michaels was able to work the business as a whole way better than anyone in the 50s.
I get that you are a history mark and that is OK.....but there is a reason that people don’t really compare Ted Williams to the best hitters of today. It is a completely different (more difficult) game. The same is true of pro wrestling.
The fact is everything you said about Thesz may be true but the fact of the matter is it was all a work....a fricking work...it always had been and the fact is in an age of “smart” fans Michaels was able to work the business as a whole way better than anyone in the 50s.
I get that you are a history mark and that is OK.....but there is a reason that people don’t really compare Ted Williams to the best hitters of today. It is a completely different (more difficult) game. The same is true of pro wrestling.
Posted on 5/7/21 at 7:06 am to LSU316
You are correct in that regard. It’s unfair to compare more recent generations on the same plane as guys from the past. You have to look at each of them in the context of the time period they appeared. You could easily say that guys like Thesz and Londos wouldn’t get over in today’s world, but that’s not a fair comparison. I would also argue that earlier generations actually had it harder because they had to have legit hooking/shooting skills. Very few of today’s guys would have had any success during those eras. Not to mention those guys didn’t have the luxuries of TV, the Internet, and other media to advertise. Most of it was via word of mouth, which makes their numbers all the more impressive.
You’re obviously a Shawn Michaels fanboy and there’s no denying his ability, which I’d rate Top 5 all-time. However, with all the other factors in play, he’s more of a Top 35-50 guy.
You’re obviously a Shawn Michaels fanboy and there’s no denying his ability, which I’d rate Top 5 all-time. However, with all the other factors in play, he’s more of a Top 35-50 guy.
This post was edited on 5/7/21 at 7:09 am
Posted on 5/7/21 at 12:01 pm to moontigr
quote:
they had to have legit hooking/shooting skills.
What a mark. There may have been some tough guys back then that could shoot...just like more recent times (Angle, Lesnar, Punk *cough*). However, never was shooting required to be a pro wrestler. It wasn't then and it isn't now. Sure the young guys take a beating from the guys that are tough. It probably doesn't happen as much today because of the hyper politically correct world we live in but that was happening as recently as the late 2000s.
quote:
Not to mention those guys didn’t have the luxuries of TV, the Internet, and other media to advertise. Most of it was via word of mouth, which makes their numbers all the more impressive.
Yea they have something even better.....a dumb audience. All of those mediums you listed, in my mind, make it harder for the guys of today to get over. I mean nobody was taking pictures of the shite that Lou Thesz or Bruno Sammartino fell on. Nobody was taking tight pictures of them pulling punches. Nobody was producing a "Wrestling with Shadows" documentary when they were hot. They had an audience where every single person thought that these guys were really fighting and trying/willing to kill each other. Hell, even the media at the time believed it. The audience didn't know that they ran up and down the roads together in the same car at night to make the next town. They didn't know that these fights were basically fully choreographed movie fight scenes. That made it way easier to get over...the audience didn't have to suspend disbelief like we do today because their was no disbelief.
quote:
You’re obviously a Shawn Michaels fanboy
I'm a Shawn Michaels fan I also think that if he would have straightened his life out before he did sometime around 1995 or so he potentially never would have suffered a career hampering injury and could definitely have been a major player with SCSA and Rock when wrestling was hottest it's ever been or will be. I think if that would have been the case history marks like yourself would have a better opinion of him. You guys totally buy into what your told about him being hard to deal with and a locker room cancer...which he, self admittedly, was for a time.
However, the fact that he was able to come back after a 5 yr absence from an injury and step basically right back into the main event scene is a testament to how easy it was for him to get over.
ETA
quote:
no denying his ability, which I’d rate Top 5 all-time. However, with all the other factors in play, he’s more of a Top 35-50 guy.
So if he is a top 5 all time worker....what areas do you see 45ish guys better than him in?
This post was edited on 5/7/21 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 5/7/21 at 3:28 pm to LSU316
I’ve been around Shawn on multiple occasions and he was a prick of the highest magnitude. I don’t need to believe what anyone else says because I experienced it myself. I also don’t buy into his story that he found religion and changed his ways. I’ve seen him attempt to pick up on women, while married. The guy is the epitome of the word douchebag.
To answer your question, overall impact on the business, drawing power, longevity, actual wrestling ability. Michaels was a great showman and in-ring performer but never drew and his impact was moderate compared to some others.
Funny that you complain about the death of kayfabe, yet your hero Shawn & his buddies had zero problem burying it.
He had his chance to be “the guy” and failed miserably. The key demographic couldn’t stand him and his ppv buyrates were worse than even Diesel’s.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps you could contact some of the other “marks” who were part of the Yohe project, and on those sites I mentioned, and see if they agree with your perspective. The “Old School Wrestling Discussion”/“Old School Wrestling Exclusive” groups on Facebook are another good place to interact with knowledgeable fans.
You keep using the word “mark” (is that supposed to be done an insult?) but ironically in this case you’re much more of a “mark” than me
To answer your question, overall impact on the business, drawing power, longevity, actual wrestling ability. Michaels was a great showman and in-ring performer but never drew and his impact was moderate compared to some others.
Funny that you complain about the death of kayfabe, yet your hero Shawn & his buddies had zero problem burying it.
He had his chance to be “the guy” and failed miserably. The key demographic couldn’t stand him and his ppv buyrates were worse than even Diesel’s.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps you could contact some of the other “marks” who were part of the Yohe project, and on those sites I mentioned, and see if they agree with your perspective. The “Old School Wrestling Discussion”/“Old School Wrestling Exclusive” groups on Facebook are another good place to interact with knowledgeable fans.
You keep using the word “mark” (is that supposed to be done an insult?) but ironically in this case you’re much more of a “mark” than me
This post was edited on 5/7/21 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 5/7/21 at 5:15 pm to moontigr
Speaking of old time wrestling, I've always been fascinated with Catch Wrestling and why it's not used more in MMA. Sakuraba is really the only guy famous for it and he nearly beat all of the Gracie's with it.
I mean, it kind of is (many of the same submissions are used in BJJ), but catch wrestling seemed to really incorporate freestyle and submissions better than just about any other discipline.
It's a subject I've ways wanted to know more about. I feel catch wrestling would be as big as BJJ if the gatekeepers to the discipline weren't such assholes and tried to hurt people so much.
BJJ has become so popular not only because of its effectiveness, but also because of how open and helpful and gentle so many of the students and teachers are for beginners. It's almost the polar opposite in catch wrestling. They all seem to have the old Stu Hart approach and just try to run people off with broken arms Instead of welcome them.
I mean, it kind of is (many of the same submissions are used in BJJ), but catch wrestling seemed to really incorporate freestyle and submissions better than just about any other discipline.
It's a subject I've ways wanted to know more about. I feel catch wrestling would be as big as BJJ if the gatekeepers to the discipline weren't such assholes and tried to hurt people so much.
BJJ has become so popular not only because of its effectiveness, but also because of how open and helpful and gentle so many of the students and teachers are for beginners. It's almost the polar opposite in catch wrestling. They all seem to have the old Stu Hart approach and just try to run people off with broken arms Instead of welcome them.
This post was edited on 5/7/21 at 5:17 pm
Page 6 of 10
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News