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Debunking some Playoff Metrics
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:44 am
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:44 am
With only 12 data points we have to be more specific and intentional in how we analyze a win and a loss.
Stop using "top 25 win" or "3 loss team". There's too much range, you can't compare a win over a top 5 with a win over #24.
Texas A&M lost 5 games but they were ALL to top 10 teams. This doesn't mean they are a top 10 program but you can't discount a victory over Texas A&M and count a victory over Iowa who would have the same record with the same schedule. Easy to make a case #30 Texas A&M is as good or better than #16 Iowa. You can't do that with the top 15 there's very clear differences.
Margin of Victory - Start using it. With only 12 games you have to factor it in. There's 3 categories to me (1 score 8 points or less) (9-16) and then 16+. If you lose by more than 16 it wasn't competitive. I don't care if you win by 20 or 40 those are dominant wins regardless. "close", "competitive", "convincing".
Strength of Opponent - When you factor this in with Margin of Victory it gives a much better perspective on the Win or Loss.
There's a difference in 11-1 with a close loss to a top 5 program, and 11-1 with a convincing loss to a top 25 program. It's a huge difference actually.
This also figures into wins. If you look at teams with close wins over "bad" (outside the top 25) opponents on multiple occasions it's a sign this wasn't a let down or a trap game, but that the team is probably not as good as their record indicates.
Quality of Loss - Who you lose to and by how much is absolutely important. You can't talk about quality wins and ignore who you lost to and what the situation is. Quality of loss isn't the only thing but it is certainly important when ranking teams.
When comparing teams if you use Top 5 wins, Top 10 wins, top 15 wins, combined with Number and Quality of losses, with Margin of Victory you are going to sound more impartial and less emotional.
Stop using "top 25 win" or "3 loss team". There's too much range, you can't compare a win over a top 5 with a win over #24.
Texas A&M lost 5 games but they were ALL to top 10 teams. This doesn't mean they are a top 10 program but you can't discount a victory over Texas A&M and count a victory over Iowa who would have the same record with the same schedule. Easy to make a case #30 Texas A&M is as good or better than #16 Iowa. You can't do that with the top 15 there's very clear differences.
Margin of Victory - Start using it. With only 12 games you have to factor it in. There's 3 categories to me (1 score 8 points or less) (9-16) and then 16+. If you lose by more than 16 it wasn't competitive. I don't care if you win by 20 or 40 those are dominant wins regardless. "close", "competitive", "convincing".
Strength of Opponent - When you factor this in with Margin of Victory it gives a much better perspective on the Win or Loss.
There's a difference in 11-1 with a close loss to a top 5 program, and 11-1 with a convincing loss to a top 25 program. It's a huge difference actually.
This also figures into wins. If you look at teams with close wins over "bad" (outside the top 25) opponents on multiple occasions it's a sign this wasn't a let down or a trap game, but that the team is probably not as good as their record indicates.
Quality of Loss - Who you lose to and by how much is absolutely important. You can't talk about quality wins and ignore who you lost to and what the situation is. Quality of loss isn't the only thing but it is certainly important when ranking teams.
When comparing teams if you use Top 5 wins, Top 10 wins, top 15 wins, combined with Number and Quality of losses, with Margin of Victory you are going to sound more impartial and less emotional.
This post was edited on 12/4/19 at 11:47 am
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:48 am to JB Bama
Its really not that difficult to decide who the best 4 teams are. If you WATCH the games you can tell.
Its:
LSU
Ohio State
Clemson
Utah
Its:
LSU
Ohio State
Clemson
Utah
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:51 am to JB Bama
There's already metrics that do this.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:55 am to JB Bama
quote:
Texas A&M lost 5 games but they were ALL to top 10 teams. This doesn't mean they are a top 10 program but you can't discount a victory over Texas A&M and count a victory over Iowa who would have the same record with the same schedule. Easy to make a case #30 Texas A&M is as good or better than #16 Iowa. You can't do that with the top 15 there's very clear differences.
A&M is very bad (no wins over teams with winning records). I haven't seen Iowa play much, but idk how you can just make that assumption. It's really lol that Bammers still think A&M is a "quality win." The rest of this is the typical Bammer "quality loss" stuff, good wins outweigh that
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:55 am to JB Bama
Solid post, agree with most of your points, but there will ALWAYS be a ‘what if’ type scenario when it comes to CFB and the playoffs
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:56 am to JB Bama
Sorry Bama sucks this year.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:57 am to Mithridates6
quote:
It's really lol that Bammers still think A&M is a "quality win."
I don’t think I’ve seen any of them say this, but I have seen them say that it was their best win of the year
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:57 am to BuckyCheese
Sorry y’all got blown out by muhfuggin Illinois
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:58 am to 225Tyga
Utah doesn't have any proof that they belong in the top 5. They have a loss outside of the top 20 and their best win is by 5 against an unranked Washington team.
Based on losing to USC and with no quality win to suggest otherwise one would assume they would lose to any of the top 5.
What would their record be if they played Penn State's schedule? Certainly a loss to Ohio State. I wouldn't expect them to win all three between Minnesota, Michigan and Iowa.
They'd probably be 10-2 with that schedule (I'm being generous).
Based on losing to USC and with no quality win to suggest otherwise one would assume they would lose to any of the top 5.
What would their record be if they played Penn State's schedule? Certainly a loss to Ohio State. I wouldn't expect them to win all three between Minnesota, Michigan and Iowa.
They'd probably be 10-2 with that schedule (I'm being generous).
This post was edited on 12/4/19 at 11:59 am
Posted on 12/4/19 at 11:58 am to Mr. Hangover
quote:
I don’t think I’ve seen any of them say this, but I have seen them say that it was their best win of the year
It's been all over the boards and twitter, they say A&M is just better than other 7-8 win teams from other conferences with no good reason
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:00 pm to Mithridates6
quote:
I haven't seen Iowa play much
Which game does Iowa win?
Clemson
Georgia
Bama
Auburn
LSU
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:01 pm to JB Bama
quote:
Utah doesn't have any proof that they belong in the top 5
I have watched them play enough games to tell that they are in the top 5. Solid Defense and an offense that continues to improve and impress.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:01 pm to JB Bama
Utah definitely has a computer problem.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:04 pm to JB Bama
quote:
Margin of Victory - Start using it. With only 12 games you have to factor it in. There's 3 categories to me (1 score 8 points or less) (9-16) and then 16+. If you lose by more than 16 it wasn't competitive. I don't care if you win by 20 or 40 those are dominant wins regardless. "close", "competitive", "convincing".
Game Control is kind of this and better.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:05 pm to JB Bama
quote:
Which game does Iowa win?
Impossible to say, but they have a better record and more good wins than A&M's total of 0. A&M blows, get over it.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:06 pm to TheCaterpillar
quote:
Game Control is kind of this and better.
Yes. Garbage time points with the second and third string shouldn't have a negative impact.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:07 pm to BuckyCheese
A&M has been the king of garbage time points/yards the last season or two
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:08 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:
Yes. Garbage time points with the second and third string shouldn't have a negative impact.
A lot of metrics that use MOV are accounting for this now.
It's the beat of both worlds because it doesn't encourage running it up, but rather getting ahead early (like every team should be trying to do) and take the foot off the gas and coast with backups once the game is in hand.
This needs to be part of any future CFP style computer rankings.
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:11 pm to Mr. Hangover
quote:Until they drop the subjective crap, that the majority of the people hate, and start using objective criteria, that the gumps and buckeye fans seem to hate, there will be angry people.
Solid post, agree with most of your points, but there will ALWAYS be a ‘what if’ type scenario when it comes to CFB and the playoffs
Posted on 12/4/19 at 12:14 pm to JB Bama
Use none of this.
Take the teams playing this weekend and be done with it.
Clemson Va
OSU UW
LSU Georgia
Oklahoma Baylor
ORE Utah
Take the winners minus the lowest ranked winner on Sunday of the 5. Use BCS formula.
Done. No committee no drama.
Take the teams playing this weekend and be done with it.
Clemson Va
OSU UW
LSU Georgia
Oklahoma Baylor
ORE Utah
Take the winners minus the lowest ranked winner on Sunday of the 5. Use BCS formula.
Done. No committee no drama.
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