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Started By
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Automatic 1st down penalties are giving refs too much power over the game
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:00 am
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:00 am
Illegal hand to the face...why is it automatic 1st down? So one lineman touching another's facemark is the only factor on a team converting 3rd and 15? Like the other 20 guys have no impact on the play. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
Illegal contact..Sometime the QB doesn't even look at the receiver.
I've said it before. Some of these penalties need to be 5 yards and replay the down. If that 5 yard gets you the first down, fine. And you're essentially getting a free play. Isn't that enough?
NFL keeps stats on turnovers. But if a defense successfully make a stop on 3rd and 10 but gets flagged for a petty, ambiguous penalty, that's essentially a turnover. Someone needs to keep track of drive extending penalties to show the influence of NFL refs.
If Bad Penalty Rules + Bad officiating = Bad situation, and we can't fix the bad officiating...should we at least change the rules to minimize the damage?
Illegal contact..Sometime the QB doesn't even look at the receiver.
I've said it before. Some of these penalties need to be 5 yards and replay the down. If that 5 yard gets you the first down, fine. And you're essentially getting a free play. Isn't that enough?
NFL keeps stats on turnovers. But if a defense successfully make a stop on 3rd and 10 but gets flagged for a petty, ambiguous penalty, that's essentially a turnover. Someone needs to keep track of drive extending penalties to show the influence of NFL refs.
If Bad Penalty Rules + Bad officiating = Bad situation, and we can't fix the bad officiating...should we at least change the rules to minimize the damage?
16
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:11 am to PeteRose
quote:
Someone needs to keep track of drive extending penalties to show the influence of NFL refs.
I agree. To flip it, there should be more loss of down penalties on the offense if you are going to keep so many automatic first downs on the defense.
I had a thought recently about another study I'd be interested in with penalties. Say a team loses 2 yards on a run on first down, but there is also a hold. So, the defense chooses either 1st and 20 or 2nd and 12. Most coaches take the 1st and 20. I'd like to see a study done to see what is more successful. Yeah, the 1st and 20 requires more yards to extend the drive, but you are also giving them more opportunities. The answer will lie in what the second down position is after accepting the penalty.
This post was edited on 10/16/19 at 11:14 am
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:16 am to DestrehanTiger
Defensive holding should not be an auto 1st down
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:17 am to PeteRose
I agree and I have another opinion: 10 yards for holding is excessive.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:18 am to whichyalnoaboutseven
quote:of all penalties that's what you pick for this thread? That should definitely be a first down
Defensive holding should not be an auto 1st down
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:20 am to PeteRose
quote:
Illegal contact..Sometime the QB doesn't even look at the receiver.
Ever thought why the qb wouldn’t look that way in that scenario?
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:30 am to PeteRose
I've never seen this many hands to the face penalties called, it's like they are using this to cover the new rule on pass interference.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:41 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
I had a thought recently about another study I'd be interested in with penalties. Say a team loses 2 yards on a run on first down, but there is also a hold. So, the defense chooses either 1st and 20 or 2nd and 12. Most coaches take the 1st and 20. I'd like to see a study done to see what is more successful. Yeah, the 1st and 20 requires more yards to extend the drive, but you are also giving them more opportunities. The answer will lie in what the second down position is after accepting the penalty.
I've brought this up before and everyone said I was out of my mind. I said I'd prefer 3rd and 10 over 2nd and 20 if I was a defense. Choosing between 1st and 20 and 2nd and 10 is a bit more of a difficult decision, I'd probably take 1st and 20 here.
Basically 2nd down to 1st down is 50% more opportunity (3 instead of 2) but 100% more yards (10 to 20). But 3rd to 2nd down is 100% more opportunity (2 instead of 1). I'd much rather have a decent enough length like 10 yards to make 1 stop
Posted on 10/16/19 at 11:57 am to WaterLink
quote:
Choosing between 1st and 20 and 2nd and 10 is a bit more of a difficult decision, I'd probably take 1st and 20 here.
1st and 20, the offense needs to avg 6.66 yards per play vs 5 yards per play on 2nd and 10 to get the 1st down, assuming team punts on 4th.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:13 pm to PeteRose
Agree. I also hate how when a QB throws an interception but the d gets called for a late hit even though it had no bearing on the throw.
IMO, it should just be 15 yards tacked on to the end of the return. If it goes for a touchdown, 15 yards on the kickoff.
IMO, it should just be 15 yards tacked on to the end of the return. If it goes for a touchdown, 15 yards on the kickoff.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:14 pm to PeteRose
should be like NFHS..... only roughing the passer, kicker, holder, center(on scrimmage kicks) are the only auto first downs. there is some discussion to ad targeting and blind side blocks as well
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:15 pm to PeteRose
quote:
1st and 20, the offense needs to avg 6.66 yards per play vs 5 yards per play on 2nd and 10 to get the 1st down, assuming team punts on 4th.
On paper that sounds right, but teams generally give up a lot of yards on 1st and 20 (2018 average was 7.4 yards gained on 1st and 10+).
I agree with the OP. No auto-firsts on any penalty. I'd also like to see them experiment with 5 yards and a loss of down on offensive holding.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:20 pm to PeteRose
One thing that is completely illogical and has NEVER made sense to me, and is by far the most easily correctable:
"Half the distance to the goal." when on offense backed up to your own endzone.
frick that. You're essentially rewarding team that has shitty field position by not giving them the full penalty.
Easy solution: Just move the chains/first down to gain line forward. Still a 10 yard penalty (or whatever).
"Half the distance to the goal." when on offense backed up to your own endzone.
frick that. You're essentially rewarding team that has shitty field position by not giving them the full penalty.
Easy solution: Just move the chains/first down to gain line forward. Still a 10 yard penalty (or whatever).
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:24 pm to PeteRose
I think most offensive penalties should just be loss of down.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:32 pm to ulsaint
quote:
I also hate how when a QB throws an interception but the d gets called for a late hit even though it had no bearing on the throw.
Exactly, QB screwed up with a bad pass. The defender screwed up with a late hit. But only the defender is paying the price. Doesn’t make sense.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:35 pm to PeteRose
I’d like to see the statistics on automatic first downs that just happen to occur on 3rd and long vs any other down and distance.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:36 pm to PeteRose
Automatic first downs shouldn't be a thing
You should have to gain 10 yards including the penalties.
You should have to gain 10 yards including the penalties.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:41 pm to PeteRose
agree wholeheartedly.
have always asked this question, why don't you assess the penalty, and if the penalty yardage is enough for a 1st down, then its a 1st down. if not, line up for the next play. the penalty shouldn't determine the 1st down or not, of course the pro interference that is a spot foul.
have always asked this question, why don't you assess the penalty, and if the penalty yardage is enough for a 1st down, then its a 1st down. if not, line up for the next play. the penalty shouldn't determine the 1st down or not, of course the pro interference that is a spot foul.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:43 pm to PeteRose
quote:
Someone needs to keep track of drive extending penalties to show the influence of NFL refs.
Absolutely agree. College refs, too.
Posted on 10/16/19 at 12:45 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
One thing that is completely illogical and has NEVER made sense to me, and is by far the most easily correctable:
"Half the distance to the goal." when on offense backed up to your own endzone.
frick that. You're essentially rewarding team that has shitty field position by not giving them the full penalty.
Easy solution: Just move the chains/first down to gain line forward. Still a 10 yard penalty (or whatever).
I agree, but how do you handle the other side of the field? (when the defense is backed up against their own goal line and they commit a penalty worth more than half the yards to gain to the goal line).
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