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One subtle takeaway from the "Les is more" podcast re: Gundy
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:07 am
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:07 am
at one point Gundy was talking about setting the edge and how that's still important to him (iirc, as a testament to Les's influence). he then mentioned how now his OL coach (former LSU coach Josh Henson) has convinced him that when the "5" crashes outside, instead of thinking you have to have a TE outside of your OT to help set that edge, the OT can be left on an island and when that crash outside occurs, the OT just lets him go and rides him outside and away from the play
Gundy said it "made no sense" to him but he let Henson explain it and implement it to show him that it worked
i think this small examples shows why Gundy is leading teams to elite records, Les struggled, and O is a disaster
Gundy has a philosophy but will listen to adaptations and advancements in strategy and philosophy and let his coaches implement these changes. even if these changes violate his core ethos/strategy, he is open to adaptation to either stay with changes in the game or establish new concepts that other teams have not seen
Les had a philosophy and would not listen to adaptations. however, his philosophy was still generally positive so even though it wasn't the most efficient strategy available to him, it was still positive in terms of its impact for his team. now, obviously, this allowed him to be countered and left leaks in his game, but generally a sound strategy with the proper personnel and coaching will win much more often than it loses. you just may not be elite consistently
O, on the other hand, simply lacks the mental ability to even have an advanced philosophy. if his subordinates have a new or advanced technique, he simply lacks the ability to comprehend it outright. if this system doesn't blow the doors off opponents, O is going to revert to his limitations and demand his coordinators simplify everything so that he can understand what is going on. that way, if there are issues, he can feel like he can address them. this is an absolute disaster, because not only are you easily exploitable on the field (due to simplicity), but you also (1) create tension with your coaching staff who has to implement the real changes to make your team more efficient and (2) neuter those coaches so that they are outside of their comfort zone, where instead of calling their game, they're guessing at what simplistic strategy O will understand and support
Gundy said it "made no sense" to him but he let Henson explain it and implement it to show him that it worked
i think this small examples shows why Gundy is leading teams to elite records, Les struggled, and O is a disaster
Gundy has a philosophy but will listen to adaptations and advancements in strategy and philosophy and let his coaches implement these changes. even if these changes violate his core ethos/strategy, he is open to adaptation to either stay with changes in the game or establish new concepts that other teams have not seen
Les had a philosophy and would not listen to adaptations. however, his philosophy was still generally positive so even though it wasn't the most efficient strategy available to him, it was still positive in terms of its impact for his team. now, obviously, this allowed him to be countered and left leaks in his game, but generally a sound strategy with the proper personnel and coaching will win much more often than it loses. you just may not be elite consistently
O, on the other hand, simply lacks the mental ability to even have an advanced philosophy. if his subordinates have a new or advanced technique, he simply lacks the ability to comprehend it outright. if this system doesn't blow the doors off opponents, O is going to revert to his limitations and demand his coordinators simplify everything so that he can understand what is going on. that way, if there are issues, he can feel like he can address them. this is an absolute disaster, because not only are you easily exploitable on the field (due to simplicity), but you also (1) create tension with your coaching staff who has to implement the real changes to make your team more efficient and (2) neuter those coaches so that they are outside of their comfort zone, where instead of calling their game, they're guessing at what simplistic strategy O will understand and support
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:12 am to SlowFlowPro
I like Gundy a lot more after listening to that talk with Les.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:12 am to SlowFlowPro
Didn't you support his hire?
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:13 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Les had a philosophy and would not listen to adaptations.
I think Les thought since he beat Saban a few times without having a quarterback worth a shite he didn't have to listen...lol
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:13 am to SlowFlowPro
Adapt or die has been a staple of college football for decades. The most effective schemes, both offensive and defensive, from 1930-1940 were surpassed by something from 40-50, and so it.
It's the nature of the beast.
It's the nature of the beast.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:13 am to SlowFlowPro
Fond memories of Henny reminding Les how many timeouts he had in the hopper.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:14 am to SlowFlowPro
The thought that we are simplifying our offense for O's sake and not the players is unbelievably depressing.
Also I think Les pre-2008 was more adaptable. 2008 changed him completely.
Also I think Les pre-2008 was more adaptable. 2008 changed him completely.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:16 am to SamuelClemens
quote:
Didn't you support his hire?
O?
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:17 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
O, on the other hand, simply lacks the mental ability
This sums up everything really. The man always looks like he just dropped his ice cream cone and his ballon flew away.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:17 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Also I think Les pre-2008 was more adaptable. 2008 changed him completely.
yes
Crowton actually got to run some zone-read/spread stuff after 2008 with JJ but it was conservative in nature and too reliant on the big play
i think 2011 really changed les. we got SO CLOSE with such a simplistic offense, he was "all in" after that
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:23 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i think 2011 really changed les. we got SO CLOSE with such a simplistic offense, he was "all in" after that
That defense was so freaking good that I think it screwed up his thinking forever after.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:25 am to Y.A. Tittle
and special teams
that season had a similar pattern of close games until D or ST opened it up with a turnover with a long return/TD. then our energy exploded and we ran roughshod over the opponent. there is no better example than the SECCG against UGA. we were TERRIBLE until the badger scored that TD. WV was also on scary territory and then claiborned ended it with the TD return.
even in the title game, when we were getting dominated into the 3rd, i knew that one big play by the D/ST could swing that game
that season had a similar pattern of close games until D or ST opened it up with a turnover with a long return/TD. then our energy exploded and we ran roughshod over the opponent. there is no better example than the SECCG against UGA. we were TERRIBLE until the badger scored that TD. WV was also on scary territory and then claiborned ended it with the TD return.
even in the title game, when we were getting dominated into the 3rd, i knew that one big play by the D/ST could swing that game
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:27 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Crowton actually got to run some zone-read/spread stuff after 2008 with JJ but it was conservative in nature and too reliant on the big play
yeah JJ could not run crowton's offense so miles shitcanned that and ran his style in 2010 going forward.it is widely known by all including former players i have talked with
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:27 am to SlowFlowPro
When Gundy was explaining that he was saying that Les taught Josh and that Josh was implementing the coaching that Josh learned from Les. Go back and listen to it again. Gundy was talking about the influence that Les had on Josh.
This post was edited on 10/5/17 at 10:51 am
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:29 am to Fat Bastard
JJ was such an interesting player b/c he was a passing QB who wasn't particularly good at running but had physical skills to create damage with running. over time he eventually became a solid running QB at the expense of developing his passing. maddening stuff
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:33 am to Fat Bastard
plus anybody who knows what they were watching in 2010 could see the big changes in O to milesball.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:33 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
JJ was such an interesting player b/c he was a passing QB who wasn't particularly good at running but had physical skills to create damage with running. over time he eventually became a solid running QB at the expense of developing his passing. maddening stuff
Jefferson was physically imposing and was always a good athlete. He just didn't have it between the ears to be a high level QB.
Though, it's odd how many LSU QBs I've said that about over the last 8 years or so.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:34 am to SlowFlowPro
Listening to that conversation and how Gundy described how much his mannerisms coaching guys reminded him of Les made me start to wonder just how much hands-on coaching Les was doing with the O-line and how much that may explain the drastic drop off this year. Les was always accused of not knowing how to really coach anybody, but he may have been a huge influence on how that O-line operated.
Posted on 10/5/17 at 10:34 am to WacoTiger
quote:
When Gundy was explaining that he was speaking that he saying that taught Josh and that Josh was implementing the coaching that he learned from Les. G
naw. he was saying Josh's mannerisms were like Les but then just talking up his boy and how good he's gotten at coaching
Les Miles teams used TEs AND FBs to set the edge just like Gundy was describing. the offense they run at OSU now, due to what Gundy was describing, doesn't require either a TE or FB. Henson didn't learn that shite from Les bro c'mon
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