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re: Wide Receiver concerns
Posted on 3/31/13 at 12:07 pm to CocoLoco
Posted on 3/31/13 at 12:07 pm to CocoLoco
quote:
I'm going to hope as much as I possibly can for Jarvis Jones, I believe he could be that kind of difference maker.
I keep hearing fans say this but if anyone would actually take the time to really evaluate everything that is known about Jarvis Jones then one could see that he is huge bust waiting to happen.
Jones is small, slow & has a poor work ethic. That won't cut on the next level even though he produced at the college level. He seems like one of those players who was able to play at a high level in college because of physical gifts but physical gifts alone won't get him by in the NFL.
Without putting the extra effort forth in the weight room, film room & on the practice field, he won't succeed. Not only that, having a poor work ethic is a factor that Payton & the organization frowns upon. Jones doesn't appear to be the type of player the organization covets & any fan who wants an impact defensive player, shouldn't either.
1
Posted on 3/31/13 at 1:54 pm to BigBrod81
a decent perspective but I'd contrast-
"Jones is small, slow" doesn't compute with "able to play at a high level in college because of physical gifts "
The game tape shows a high impact playmaker. Whether it was overwhelming skills or overwhelming effort being small and slow I dunno. He was a beast.
The intangibles we really don't know. from our viewpoint "Jones doesn't appear to be the type of player the organization covets..." may be true. It may just be the public perception as well. Randy Moss always had public perception issues (which dropped his draft stock from #1-ish into the teens) but his teammates and coaches (including Belichick) only gave him top grades as a teammate and his contribution to the locker room. If talking LBs ya gotta go the original LT. Dude had super major issues. But he was one of the most dominant defenders in NFL history. I have complete trust in the FO to sort out if he fits here beyond the game skills. Shockey fell into line here. Hargorve was on his last strike when he came here. Carl Nicks was a 5th Rder instead of a 2nd over the off field concerns. They've proven well in sifting through these kind of players under Payton.
"Jones is small, slow" doesn't compute with "able to play at a high level in college because of physical gifts "
The game tape shows a high impact playmaker. Whether it was overwhelming skills or overwhelming effort being small and slow I dunno. He was a beast.
The intangibles we really don't know. from our viewpoint "Jones doesn't appear to be the type of player the organization covets..." may be true. It may just be the public perception as well. Randy Moss always had public perception issues (which dropped his draft stock from #1-ish into the teens) but his teammates and coaches (including Belichick) only gave him top grades as a teammate and his contribution to the locker room. If talking LBs ya gotta go the original LT. Dude had super major issues. But he was one of the most dominant defenders in NFL history. I have complete trust in the FO to sort out if he fits here beyond the game skills. Shockey fell into line here. Hargorve was on his last strike when he came here. Carl Nicks was a 5th Rder instead of a 2nd over the off field concerns. They've proven well in sifting through these kind of players under Payton.
Posted on 3/31/13 at 2:11 pm to Drex
I'm not going to lie, I'm beginning to get on the Justin Hunter bandwagon. I don't know if he just went up against a bunch of bad corner backs or what, but that dude can play.
Posted on 3/31/13 at 2:23 pm to xxKylexx
Hunter looks like the high risk/high reward WR type. Can't see him going high as #15 and he'll be gone by #75.
Posted on 3/31/13 at 3:25 pm to blueslover
You are comparing two of the greatest physically gifted players in NFL History in Lawrence Taylor & Randy Moss to Jarvis Jones? That's a bit of a stretch there don't you think? You are lumping in off the field issues into the same category as lack of preparation which are two totally different situations.
No matter what Taylor or Moss did off the field, you never heard anything negative from a preparation standpoint. Both played under very demanding coaches in Parcells & Belicheck & both drew praise from those two for their knowledge of the game & their preparation. We have yet to hear the same regarding Jones even though he was one of the top college players the last two years.
Being small is meaningless on the college level if you are the best player on the field. Tyrann Mathieu is a perfect an example of this. One can excell on the college level because not everyone on that level will make it to the next level. A player can get away with being physically good & not putting in the extra effort & work but that changes on the pro level when going up against the best of the best week in & week out.
If every NFL team went off of game tape for every draft then every Heisman winner in college would be the number overall pick. Game film is not THE SAY ALL determining factor when making the decision on a selection. It includes multiple factors as it should especially when it involves making a selection in the first half of the 1st round. You can go back years & look at film on college players who were lights out on that level but flopped in the NFL because they were undersized or lacked the proper work ethic. Jones has both of those going against him. Jones' size & work ethic scream NFL bust especially when the players lining up across from him or competing with him for his position are putting in that extra effort.
Besides game film, what other factors suggest Jones should be a high draft pick? His size? No. His speed? No? His work ethic? No? Great physical tools that project well on the next level? No. All people are leaning on are is his game film & that can be a huge mistake when projecting how a player will perform on the next level.
No matter what Taylor or Moss did off the field, you never heard anything negative from a preparation standpoint. Both played under very demanding coaches in Parcells & Belicheck & both drew praise from those two for their knowledge of the game & their preparation. We have yet to hear the same regarding Jones even though he was one of the top college players the last two years.
quote:
"Jones is small, slow" doesn't compute with "able to play at a high level in college because of physical gifts "
Being small is meaningless on the college level if you are the best player on the field. Tyrann Mathieu is a perfect an example of this. One can excell on the college level because not everyone on that level will make it to the next level. A player can get away with being physically good & not putting in the extra effort & work but that changes on the pro level when going up against the best of the best week in & week out.
quote:
The game tape shows a high impact playmaker.
If every NFL team went off of game tape for every draft then every Heisman winner in college would be the number overall pick. Game film is not THE SAY ALL determining factor when making the decision on a selection. It includes multiple factors as it should especially when it involves making a selection in the first half of the 1st round. You can go back years & look at film on college players who were lights out on that level but flopped in the NFL because they were undersized or lacked the proper work ethic. Jones has both of those going against him. Jones' size & work ethic scream NFL bust especially when the players lining up across from him or competing with him for his position are putting in that extra effort.
Besides game film, what other factors suggest Jones should be a high draft pick? His size? No. His speed? No? His work ethic? No? Great physical tools that project well on the next level? No. All people are leaning on are is his game film & that can be a huge mistake when projecting how a player will perform on the next level.
This post was edited on 3/31/13 at 3:43 pm
Posted on 3/31/13 at 9:55 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
Besides game film, what other factors suggest Jones should be a high draft pick? His size? No. His speed? No? His work ethic? No? Great physical tools that project well on the next level? No. All people are leaning on are is his game film & that can be a huge mistake when projecting how a player will perform on the next level.
How about some facts?
2011:
He posted 70 total tackles including 19.5 for a loss, 13.5 sacks (which led the SEC), 2 forced fumbles and 26 quarterback hurries.
2012:
He recorded 85 tackles, 24 tackles-for-loss, 14.5 sacks, 1 interception, 7 forced fumbles, and 2 fumbles recovered.
BTW...that's playing in the SEC.
I guess on the field play doesn't count for anything as well.
Posted on 3/31/13 at 10:20 pm to adono
That's what convinces me, Adono.
It wasn't like CB Dave Amerson who had 13 INT's in 2011, then got beat almost every game in 2012. Which year was the aberration?
Jarvis dominated two years in a row, both years with impressive stats, at the highest level of CFB in the SEC, where coaches had a years worth of film & time to gameplan against him in 2012, and yet he still dominated, & one could argue the numbers were better than he produced in 2011.
How's that for a run-on sentence?
It wasn't like CB Dave Amerson who had 13 INT's in 2011, then got beat almost every game in 2012. Which year was the aberration?
Jarvis dominated two years in a row, both years with impressive stats, at the highest level of CFB in the SEC, where coaches had a years worth of film & time to gameplan against him in 2012, and yet he still dominated, & one could argue the numbers were better than he produced in 2011.
How's that for a run-on sentence?
Posted on 3/31/13 at 11:01 pm to LSUFreek
Some good points on the non game tape stuff but game tape is still the major or #1 grading factor. Certainly it isn't all but it is more than anything else. For a Jones or Mathieu you could make the case it is by superior effort and skills versus physical tools that they accel.
As for LT you can look up his history. Drunk, coked up, rolling into practice without sleeping the night before, was everyday life. He would have his Rolls or whatever parked on the practice field. He'd tell Parcells if practice isn't over by 5 I'm leaving. And often he would, right off the field, into his car, and to the golf course where he would change. That some serious diva for any team to deal with but his performance was well worth the downsides. Not putting JJ with LT but in this class he's one of maybe 2-3 LBs that look to have uber high ceilings. I'm hopeful for Mingo, can see some longer term for Ansah, but Jordan and Jones look to have that added twitch that could put them in the immediate high impact class of a Aldon Smith or Von Miller.
As for LT you can look up his history. Drunk, coked up, rolling into practice without sleeping the night before, was everyday life. He would have his Rolls or whatever parked on the practice field. He'd tell Parcells if practice isn't over by 5 I'm leaving. And often he would, right off the field, into his car, and to the golf course where he would change. That some serious diva for any team to deal with but his performance was well worth the downsides. Not putting JJ with LT but in this class he's one of maybe 2-3 LBs that look to have uber high ceilings. I'm hopeful for Mingo, can see some longer term for Ansah, but Jordan and Jones look to have that added twitch that could put them in the immediate high impact class of a Aldon Smith or Von Miller.
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