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Started By
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Free Agency and the Draft
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:45 pm
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:45 pm
With the signing of Butler we have knocked our big holes down to Left Tackle and backup QB. More defensive players, especially ones that fit Ryan's scheme, would be great but not nearly as big as those two needs.
Starting with the biggest hole, how should the Saints address the starting Left Tackle void? Personally I disagree with the notion that we should just get by with average talent.
We could and have in the past, but I believe getting a legit above average to great LT would make the rest of the nfl shite their pants.
Brees has great footwork, a quick release, and room in the middle to step up but you can see sometimes he'll get happy feet if he feels pressure from the backside. This is when most of his picks occur because he presses and makes mistakes while not setting his feet.
I feel if we can sign McKinnie or a comparable vet as a stop gap/backup plan and draft one of the top 3 tackles we can have Brees play more or less worry free for the rest of his time here.
Continued below.
Starting with the biggest hole, how should the Saints address the starting Left Tackle void? Personally I disagree with the notion that we should just get by with average talent.
We could and have in the past, but I believe getting a legit above average to great LT would make the rest of the nfl shite their pants.
Brees has great footwork, a quick release, and room in the middle to step up but you can see sometimes he'll get happy feet if he feels pressure from the backside. This is when most of his picks occur because he presses and makes mistakes while not setting his feet.
I feel if we can sign McKinnie or a comparable vet as a stop gap/backup plan and draft one of the top 3 tackles we can have Brees play more or less worry free for the rest of his time here.
Continued below.
This post was edited on 3/28/13 at 5:51 pm
6
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:47 pm to bonethug0108
If we sign one of the top 3 LT I rather let them start from day 1.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:49 pm to bonethug0108
It may mean trading up to at least the 10th spot but that would take just a swap of firsts and maybe a fourth and a fifth. The Saints have shown they will trade up to get what they want. They have not shown much desire in trading back despite that being the popular choice around here.
As for backup QB they have been looking at vets but I think the best/cheapest option is to draft a late round guy because if Brees goes down we are likely screwed anyway.
As for backup QB they have been looking at vets but I think the best/cheapest option is to draft a late round guy because if Brees goes down we are likely screwed anyway.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:50 pm to 504hornets
Starting a rookie at LT is a sure fire way to get Brees destroyed. Besides QB, hardest spot to get accustomed to the NFL game is LT. You go from college to blocking the biggest, fastest freaks in the NFL. Your blocking Joe Blow from Texas Tech, now you're blocking JPP, Peppers, Mathews, Smith, Vonn Miller, etc.
I say sign a vet to a few years, get a LT we like in the mid rounds and coach him up. That' where Payton drafts the best too.
I say sign a vet to a few years, get a LT we like in the mid rounds and coach him up. That' where Payton drafts the best too.
This post was edited on 3/28/13 at 5:55 pm
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:53 pm to 504hornets
I agree with drafting a top 3 and letting him start right away but as we all know even the sure things aren't always sure things.
@kg, when you're drafting a firtst round tackle it's because they have the talent to come in right away and block those guys. It doesn't always work out but it has more often than not for most teams.
@kg, when you're drafting a firtst round tackle it's because they have the talent to come in right away and block those guys. It doesn't always work out but it has more often than not for most teams.
This post was edited on 3/28/13 at 5:56 pm
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:56 pm to KG5989
quote:
Starting a rookie at LT is a sure fire way to get Brees destroyed.
wasn't bushrod a rookie?
Posted on 3/28/13 at 5:57 pm to geauxtigers87
Bush was second year I believe but he wasn't a first rounder. Those guys are expected to start right away.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 6:07 pm to bonethug0108
I would agree a top 3 LT could come in and be very productive, but we will not have that option because the will all three be gone by 15. I would say trade down and get that 2nd round pick and draft BPA defense in 1st and 2nd and draft a LT in the third and sign a vet FA. I just dont like giving up any draft picks with our defense the way it was. I do beleive we will be better but lets be realistic a totally new scheme will take some adjusting especially a switch to 34.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 6:19 pm to bonethug0108
100 percent agree. If one of the big 3 Lts are there you take him. He's much better than anything we have right now and he is protecting the blind side of your most important and most expensive player.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 6:42 pm to bonethug0108
would have no problem taking a left tackle in the first round ... but do you really think the safety position is solid?
Posted on 3/28/13 at 6:44 pm to bonethug0108
Got most of what you said..but what does this mean?
quote:
Continued below.
This post was edited on 3/28/13 at 6:44 pm
Posted on 3/28/13 at 7:05 pm to bonethug0108
Bone thug, I know why they are 1st rounders. Look at the history of LT that have been drafted in the 1st and started. There are very few. Matt Kalil was solid this year. Joe Thomas was too his 1st year. But it is very very hard to get a guy to come in at LT, start, and not make many mistakes. Not to mention he has to learn our complicated NFL system as a rookie and never being in an NFL locker room. Because that's what a LT is asked to do. Not to mention, we would be most likely getting the #3 LT in the draft. I still say sign a vet we like and understands what we want to do, let him play for 2-3 years. Draft defense in the 1st, then get a LT Payton likes in the mid rounds. Look at the OL he has found in the mid to late rounds of the draft. He puts them behind good vets, coaches them up, and in 2 years they are very good OL. Thats where we have drafted the best in the mid rounds. OL. And I'm sure Payton already has a guy he likes in mind.
Do you really want an unproven rookie to protect your most important and expensive player??
As far as safety goes, I'd love to get Elam. Not high in Vacarro at all. Elam could very well be the defensive player in the draft in a couple of years.
Do you really want an unproven rookie to protect your most important and expensive player??
As far as safety goes, I'd love to get Elam. Not high in Vacarro at all. Elam could very well be the defensive player in the draft in a couple of years.
This post was edited on 3/28/13 at 7:07 pm
Posted on 3/28/13 at 7:28 pm to goatmilker
quote:
Got most of what you said..but what does this mean?
I was posting on my phone and for some reason I couldn't fit it all in one post. The end of the initial post is in the third post.
As for what I think of the safety position, I think SS will be improved and I think we have a couple of guys to compete at FS(Jenkins and IAQ) though I would not be opposed to drafting one in the first if we miss on the tackles and pass rushers we want.
Honestly, despite what some people think, I do not like taking a DT in the first because we have plenty of legit in house options and most of them are young.
I also think 3-4 DEs are much easier to come by and should not be a first round choice.
Obviously should not go for OG, C, QB, TE, HB, FB, K, or P in the first.
WR is the only offensive position outside of LT I think we should even consider looking at(though I wouldn't like picking one). Our two proven guys are getting up in age and we have unproven youth behind them. Only take a guy if you think he'll be a true stud(no Meachem).
On D I think FS, SS, OLB, and ILB are all very fair game.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 9:31 pm to bonethug0108
I've pushed for McKinnie as the short term affordable fit from the get-go. Let him compete with Brown in camp. If Brown wins we have a capable proven backup if his injury history doesn't change.
If not McKinnie, then Gaither, Starks, or some other vet that can keep it from being a turnstile is all that is needed. There's no LT that will be available in the draft fitting #15 value. 3rd Rd could be a source of solid competition. Kyle Long or Menelik Watson might be a little too hopefu but not totally out of the question. Armstead or Faulk have a high chance of avialability and could compete.
I've rehearsed this one a lot here... We have seen a whole lot more of Brown on the field than we did of Bushrod before he ever started. The Saints are very serious about the "next man up" mantra.
If not McKinnie, then Gaither, Starks, or some other vet that can keep it from being a turnstile is all that is needed. There's no LT that will be available in the draft fitting #15 value. 3rd Rd could be a source of solid competition. Kyle Long or Menelik Watson might be a little too hopefu but not totally out of the question. Armstead or Faulk have a high chance of avialability and could compete.
I've rehearsed this one a lot here... We have seen a whole lot more of Brown on the field than we did of Bushrod before he ever started. The Saints are very serious about the "next man up" mantra.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 9:36 pm to blueslover
quote:
There's no LT that will be available in the draft fitting #15 value.
Exactly but people keep saying "draft a LT" "guarantee tackle" without saying who they think would be an actual realistic pick at 15. Butler does not cure our pass rush. We have 0 OLB who have started in a 3-4. I say Mingo or Jones is still our targets, whichever one is available.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 9:51 pm to BarbeTiger
After the Top 3 LTs there is a huge void down to the next level. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a full round (32 picks) from the #3 LT pick to the #4 one. There might be some RT ones that go in there but that does nothing for the LT need.
That's certainly good matches for value as well as need. Jordan too but I'm down to 10% or less chance of him. Ansah is a wild card prolly in the mix for value and fit too.
No safety warrants #15 IMO. Same thing, 5 or 10 picks back then, yeah, let's go. Jonathan Cyprien is pushing my board for the first safety taken right now.
quote:
I say Mingo or Jones is still our targets, whichever one is available.
That's certainly good matches for value as well as need. Jordan too but I'm down to 10% or less chance of him. Ansah is a wild card prolly in the mix for value and fit too.
No safety warrants #15 IMO. Same thing, 5 or 10 picks back then, yeah, let's go. Jonathan Cyprien is pushing my board for the first safety taken right now.
Posted on 3/28/13 at 9:57 pm to BarbeTiger
About drafting a LT at 15, sure one will likely not be there which is why I proposed a trade up which the Saints have done several times already to go for a need player/guy they really want.
To just say one will not be at 15 oh well is overlooking our draft history under Payton. It is much more likely than the way too often proposed trade back that will magically just be a second rounder just so we'll have a second rounder.
About Brown in particular his problem is twofold. The most important knock is his inability to stay healthy. Payton stressed this and mentioned he doesn't want to ask week to week if that guy will be there or not.
The other is that while he has started looking better, that has been at RT. He struggled mightily at LT and there is no evidence to suggest he'd be any better there when he is at this point mediocre at best at RT.
As for "starting" OLBs, NONE of the guys we'll draft will have starting experience in the NFL at all. There is no guarantee that they'd be any good or just end up like Ellis.
So in the end, we'd still have 0 OLBs that have started.
And I already stated that drafting a LT early(one that is ranked that high) is just as much of a gamble(pretty much every draft pick is). That's why I called for a 1-2 year stop gap with someone who has started and played at least decent at LT in FA.
This whole get by with mediocre tackles thing is bs. Brees has consistently shown when he senses pressure even when it's not there he will get happy feet and make terrible throws. Get a legit protector for the remainder of his time here and you can throw us out there at WR and we'd look great.
Edit:
As for what it would take to trade up to 10th, it seems a 1st round swap, our 3rd, and our 5th(with maybe a 7th this year or next year's 6th thrown in) would do the trick.
To just say one will not be at 15 oh well is overlooking our draft history under Payton. It is much more likely than the way too often proposed trade back that will magically just be a second rounder just so we'll have a second rounder.
About Brown in particular his problem is twofold. The most important knock is his inability to stay healthy. Payton stressed this and mentioned he doesn't want to ask week to week if that guy will be there or not.
The other is that while he has started looking better, that has been at RT. He struggled mightily at LT and there is no evidence to suggest he'd be any better there when he is at this point mediocre at best at RT.
As for "starting" OLBs, NONE of the guys we'll draft will have starting experience in the NFL at all. There is no guarantee that they'd be any good or just end up like Ellis.
So in the end, we'd still have 0 OLBs that have started.
And I already stated that drafting a LT early(one that is ranked that high) is just as much of a gamble(pretty much every draft pick is). That's why I called for a 1-2 year stop gap with someone who has started and played at least decent at LT in FA.
This whole get by with mediocre tackles thing is bs. Brees has consistently shown when he senses pressure even when it's not there he will get happy feet and make terrible throws. Get a legit protector for the remainder of his time here and you can throw us out there at WR and we'd look great.
Edit:
As for what it would take to trade up to 10th, it seems a 1st round swap, our 3rd, and our 5th(with maybe a 7th this year or next year's 6th thrown in) would do the trick.
This post was edited on 3/28/13 at 10:01 pm
Posted on 3/28/13 at 10:10 pm to bonethug0108
quote:
And I already stated that drafting a LT early(one that is ranked that high) is just as much of a gamble(pretty much every draft pick is)
I'd dispute that point. It is documented history the success rate of highly drafted OTs. Failures? Sure. But the overall success rate along with the importance of the position is a driving force in why so many are drafted so highly.
OTs might be the most successful position drafted in the 1st Rd of Saints franchise history. it's an impressive list-
Jammal Brown #13
Kyle Turley #7
Willie Roaf #8
Jim Dombrowski #6
Stan Brock #12
Kurt schmacher #12
Posted on 3/28/13 at 10:14 pm to blueslover
I didn't mean in actual success rate, I just meant that any player can be a boom or a bust(or just average).
But yes, highly drafted LTs usually pan out more often than not which is why I'm much more sold(if the Saints are also) on taking a LT than all of these unproven pass rushing OLBs who have a much higher bust rate.
And looking at that list, I think it's about time we get that Wall for Brees' stretch run. Keep him upright and healthy so we can extend his stay a couple of years.
But yes, highly drafted LTs usually pan out more often than not which is why I'm much more sold(if the Saints are also) on taking a LT than all of these unproven pass rushing OLBs who have a much higher bust rate.
And looking at that list, I think it's about time we get that Wall for Brees' stretch run. Keep him upright and healthy so we can extend his stay a couple of years.
This post was edited on 3/28/13 at 10:15 pm
Posted on 3/29/13 at 10:41 am to bonethug0108
The Saints are in a weird predicament for their first pick. They have addressed a need for CB and OLB in free agency. I just don't see a bid need to take an OLB with their first pick having three capable on the roster now for two positions.
I don't think one of the top three LT will be available at 15, and there is no S worthy of the 15th pick. So what do you do? Ideally, I would love to trade up for a LT or trade down for more picks, but this takes other willing partners (slim chance of happening).
We will probably do what Payton has done every year and pick BPA. We still have needs to upgrade at LT, backup QB, WR depth, S, DT, DE.
I don't think one of the top three LT will be available at 15, and there is no S worthy of the 15th pick. So what do you do? Ideally, I would love to trade up for a LT or trade down for more picks, but this takes other willing partners (slim chance of happening).
We will probably do what Payton has done every year and pick BPA. We still have needs to upgrade at LT, backup QB, WR depth, S, DT, DE.
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